hey everyone welcome to the laden space podcast this is alesio partner and CTO at desable partners and I'm joined by m swix founder of smalli hey and today we are still in our sort of makeshift in between Studio but we're very delighted to have uh a former returning guest host itar welcome back great to be here after a year or more yeah a year and a half um you're one of our earliest guests on on agents now you're Co co-founder of Coto right uh which has been just been renamed you also raised a $30 million series a series a was 40 40 $40 million series a uh and we can get caught up on on everything uh but we're also delighted to have our new guest Eric welcome yeah excited to be here should I say bolt or stack blits like is it is it like its own company now or yeah I bolts definitely uh bolt. new that's the that's the thing that we're probably the most known for I imagine at this point um which is ridiculous to say because you were working as St cits for so long yeah I mean it was within within a week we you know we were doing like you know double the amount of traffic the and stack Blitz had been online for seven years and we're like What but anys yeah so we're uh stack Blitz uh the company behind bolt. new if you've heard of bolt. new that's that's our stuff so yeah yeah excellent I think by the way that the founder mode you need to know to capture opportunities so like kudus are doing that right like you're working on some technology and then suddenly you can exploit that to New World yeah totally yeah I mean you know I think uh well not to not to jump but 100% I mean that's I mean kind of a couple of months ago you we had the idea for bll earlier this year you know we haven't really shared this too much publicly but like you know we actually tried to build it with some of the you know state-of-the-art models back in January you know February you kind of Imagine which and they just like weren't good enough uh to actually do the code generation where where the code was accurate and you know as fast and whatever have you without a ton of like rag but then there was like issues with that so we put it on the shelf and then we got kind of a sneak peek of you know some of the some of the new models have come out you know in the past uh couple of months now and so once we saw that once we actually saw the code genen from it we were like oh my God like okay we can we can build a product around this and and so that was really the impetus of us of us building the thing but with that it was you know stackblitz the cor stack Blitz product the past seven years has been an IDE for developers so the entire user experience FL we've built up just didn't make sense and so when we kind of went out to build bolt we just thought you know if we were inventing our product today what would the interface look like given what is now possible with a Coen and so there's definitely a lot of conversations we had internally um but you know just kind of when we logically laid it out we were like yeah I think it makes sense to just Greenfield a new thing and let's see what happens if it works great then you know we'll figure it out if it doesn't work great then we'll it'll get deleted at some point right but uh yeah anyway so that that that's kind of the how how it actually came to be I'll mention your background a little bit you were also founder of thinkster before you started stackit so both of you are second time Founders both of you have S of refounded your company recently yours was more of a rename I think a slightly different direction as well and then we can talk about both maybe just chronologically should we get caught up on on where Cotto is uh first and then you know just like what what people should know since the last pod sure like the last pod was two months after we launched and we basically had the vision that we talked about the idea that uh software development is about specification test and code Etc and we are more on the testing part as in essence we think that uh if you solve testing you solve software the beautiful chart chart and testing is is a really big feeli like uh there's many Dimension unit testing the level of the component how how big it is how large it is and and then there's like different type of testing is it regression or smoke or whatever so back then we only had like a one ID extension with unit test as in Focus one and a half year later first ID extension uh supports more more type of testing as context tow we index local local repos but also 10 thousands of repos for Fortune 500 companies we have another uh agent another tool that is called the perer agent is the open source and the commercial one is cod merge and then we have another open source called the cover agent which is not yet commercial product coming very soon it's very impressive it could be that already people are approving uh automated uh pull requests that they don't even aware in really big open sources so once we have enough of these we will also launch another another agent in one and a half year what we did is grew in our offering and mostly on the side of does this code actually works testing code review Etc and we believe that's the you know the critical Milestone that needs to be achieved to actually have the AI engineer uh for enterprise software so and then uh like for the first year was everything bottom up getting to 1 million installation uh 2024 that was 2023 2024 was starting to monetize to feel like how it is to to make the first buck so we did the teams offering it went well with a thousand of teams Etc and then uh we started like just a few months ago to do Enterprise uh with everything you need which is a lot of things that uh discussed in the last uh post that was just just released uh by codel yeah uh that's how we call codium uh just opening the braat uh our company name was codium Ai and we renamed to codo and we call our models codium so back to my point so we started Enterprise motion and already have like a multiple like Fortune 100 companies and then with that we raised a series say of4 million and uh what's exciting about it is that enables us to develop more agents that that's our Focus like I think it's very different we're not coming very soon with an IDE or something like that you don't want to Fork code yeah maybe we'll Fork Jet Jet brains or something just to be different I noticed that you know I think that the promise of general purpose agen has kind of died like everyone is doing kind of what you're doing there's kot genen Koto merge and then there's a third one what's the name of it yeah the C cover cover uh which is like a commercial version of a cover agent it's coming soon yeah I see something similar with Factory AI also doing like uh droids they all have special purpose doing things but people don't really want general purpose agents right the last time you were here we talked about autog gbt the the biggest thing of 2023 this year not really relevant anymore and I think it's mostly just because like I think when you give me a general purpose agent I don't know what to do with it yeah I totally agree with that we we're saying it for a while and I think it will stay like that despite the computer use Etc that supposedly can just replace us and it could you can just like prompt it to be hey now be a QA you know or be a QA person or or a developer I still think that there's a few reasons why you see like uh dedicated agents again I'm a bit more focused uh like my head is more on you know complex software or for big teams and Enterprise Etc and even you know think about uh permissions and what are the data sources and just the same way you you manage permissions for for users like developers you probably want to have dedicated guard rails and dedicated approvals for for agents I intentionally like touched a point that not many people think about and of course than what you can think of like maybe there's uh uh different tools tool use Etc but just the first point by itself uh is a good reason why you want to have different agents just to compare that with pa. new you're almost focused on like the application is very complex and now you need better tools to kind of manage it and build on top of it on bolt it's almost like like I was using it the other day there's basically like hey look I'm just trying to get started you know I'm not very opinionated on like how you're going to implement this like this is what I want to do and you build a beautiful with it what people ask as the next step you know going back to like the general versus like specific have you had people say Hey you know this is great to start but then I want a specific bolt. new do whatever else to do a more vertical integration and kind of like development or what's the what do people say yeah I think um I think you kind of Hit the hit a head on which is you know kind of the way that we've we've kind of talked about it internally is it's like people are using bolt to go from like 0.0 to 1.0 like that's like kind of the biggest unlock that bolt has versus most other things out there I mean I think that's kind of you know what's what's very unique about bolt I think the uh you know the working on like existing Enterprise applications is I mean it's crazy important because you know there's uh you look when you look at the Fortune 500 I mean these C- bases some of these have been around for you know 20 30 plus years and so it's important to be going from you know 101.3 to 101.4 Etc I think for us so what's been actually pretty interesting is we see there's kind of two different users for us that are coming in and it's very distinct it's like people that are developers already and then there's people that have never really written software and or if they have it's been very very minimal and and so in the first Camp what these developers are doing like to go from zero to one they're coming to bolt and then they're ejecting the thing to get up or just downloading in you know opening cursor like whatever to to you know keep iterating on the thing and sometimes they'll bring it back to bolt to like add in a huge piece of functionality or something right but for the people that don't know how to code they're actually just they they live in this thing and that was one of the weird things when we launched is you know within uh day of us being online one of the most popular YouTube videos and there's been a ton since which is you know there's like oh bolt is the cursor killer and and I originally saw the headlines and I was like thanks for the views I I don't this doesn't make sense to me that's not that's not what we kind of thought this how YouTubers talk to each other well everything kills everything else totally but what B what blew my mind was that there was any comparison because it's like cursor is a is a local IDE product but when when we actually kind of dug into it and we and we have you people that are using our product saying this I'm not using curs we're like what and it turns out there are hundreds of thousands of people that we have seen that were using cursor and were trying to build apps with that where they're not traditional software devs but were heavily leaning on the AI and as you can imagine it is very complicated right to do that with cursor so when bulk came out they're like wow this thing's amazing because it kind of inverts the complexity where it's like you know it's not an IDE it's it's a it's a chat based sort of interface that we have so so that's kind of the split which is rather interesting we've had like the first startups Now launch off of Bolt entirely where this you know U tomorrow I'm doing a live stream with this guy named Paul who he's built an entire CRM using this thing and you with backend Etc and um you people have made their first money on the internet period you know launching this with stripe or whatever have you so um that's that's kind of the two main the two main categories of folks that we see using both though I agree that I don't understand a comparison doesn't make sense to me I think like we have like two type of families of tools one is like we reimagine software development I think bolt is is there and I think like a cursor is more like a evolution of what we already have it's like taking the IDE and it's it's amazing and it's so okay let's let's adapt adapt the IDE to an Era where llms can do a lot for us and bold is more like okay let's rethink everything totally and I think we see a few tools there like maybe uh verel and maybe repet and in that area and then in the area of uh let's expedite uh let's change let's let's progress with what we already have you can see cursor and and Cotto we're different on between ourselves cursor and Cotto but definitely I think like comparison doesn't make sense and just to said the context this is not a Twitter demo you made four million of Revenue in four weeks so this is this is actually working you know it's not a what what do you think that is like there's been so many people demoing coding agents on Twitter and then doesn't really work and then you guys were just like here you go it's live go use it pay us for it you know is there anything in the development that was like interesting and maybe how that compares to building your own agents we had no idea honestly like we we we've been pretty blown away and and things have just kind of continued to grow faster since then we're like a today is week six so I I kind came back to the point you just made right where it's you kind of outlined it's like there's kind of this new market of like kind of rethinking software development and then there's heavily augmenting existing developers I think that you know both of which are uh you AI Cen being extremely good it's allowed existing developers it's allowing existing developers to hammer out software far faster than they could have ever before right it's like the ultimate power tool for an existing developer but this cjun stuff is now so good and we saw this over the past you know from the beginning of the year when we tried to First build bolt it's actually lowered the barrier to people that that aren't traditionally software Engineers but the kind of the key thing is if you kind of think about from Imagine you've never written software before right my co-founder and I he and I grew up uh down the street from each other in Chicago we learned out code when we were 13 together we've been building stuff ever since and this back in like the mid 2000s or whatever you know there was nothing for free to learn from online on the internet and how to code so like we for our 13th birthdays we asked our parents for you know O'Reilly books because you couldn't get this at the library right and so um instead of like an Xbox we got you know programming books but the hardest part for everyone learning code is getting an environment set up locally you know and so when we built stack Blitz like kind of the key thesis like seven years ago the Insight we had was that the hey it seems like the browser has a lot of new apis like web assembly and service workers Etc where you could actually write an operating system that ran inside the browser that could boot in milliseconds and and you you know basically there's this missing capability of the web like the web should be able to build apps for the web right you should be able to build the web on the web every other platform has that Visual Studio for Windows xcode for Mac the the web has no built-in primitive for this and so just like our built-in kind of like nerd Instinct on this was like that seems like a huge hole and it's you know will be very valuable or like you very valuable problem to solve so people have to set up Dev environments you know this is what we spent the past seven years doing and the reality is existing developers have running locally they already know how to set up that environment so the problem isn't as acute for them when we put bolt online we took that technology called Web container and married it with these you know state-of-the-art Frontier models and the people that have the most pain with getting stuff set up locally is people that don't code I think that's been you know really the the big explosive reason is no one else has been trying to make Dev environments work inside of a browser tab be you know for the past uh since ever other than basically our company largely because there wasn't an immediate demand or need so I think we kind of find ourselves at the right place at the right time and again for this Market of people that don't know how to write software you would kind of expect that you should be able to do this without downloading something to your computer in the same way that hey I don't have to download Photoshop now to make designs cuz there's fake I don't have to download word because there's you know Google Docs they're kind of looking at this as as that sort of thing right which was kind of the you know our impetus and kind of vision from the GetGo but uh you know the Cod gen the AI Cod genen stuff that's come out has just been you know an order of magnitude multiplier on how magic that is right so that's kind of my best distillation of like what what is going on here you know yeah and you can deploy too rightl yeah yeah and so that's what's really cool is it's you know we have deployment built in um with netfi and um this is actually I think uh Sean you actually built this at netlify when you were there one of the most brilliant Integrations actually because you effectively the API that Sean Bill maybe you can speak to it but like as a provider we we can just effectively give files to NFI without the user even logging in and they have a live website if they want to keep hold on to it they can click a link and claim it to their netlify account but it basically is just this really magic experience because when you come to bolt you say I want a website like my mom 70 71 years old made her first website you know on the internet two weeks ago right it was about her nursing days and and and so and it made up oh that's fantastic though it wouldn't have been made 100% cuz even in you know when we had a lot of people building personal like deeply personal stuff like in the first week we launched this this sales guy from the East Coast uh you know replied to a tweet of mine he said thank you so much for building this you to to your team his daughter has a medical condition and so for her to travel she has to like line up donors or something you know so ahead of time and so he actually used Bol to make a website to do that to actually go and send it to folks in the the region she was going to travel to ahead of time I was really touched by it but I also thought like why you know why didn't he use like wixer Squarespace right I mean this is this is a solved problem quote unquote right and then when I thought I actually use Squarespace for my for my uh the wedding website for my wife and I like back in 2021 so I'm I'm familiar you know it was it was faster I know how to Cod I was like this is faster right and I thought back and I was like there's a whole interface you have to learn how to use and it's actually not that simple there's like a million things you can configure in that thing when you come to bolt there's there's a box you just say I need a I need a wedding website here's the date here's where it is and and here's a photo of me and my wife put it somewhere relevant it's actually the simplest way and that's what my when my mom came she said uh I'm Pat Simons I was a nurse in the 70s you know and like here's the things I did and a website came out so coming back to why is this such a I think why are we seeing this sort of growth it's this is the simplest interface I think maybe ever created to actually build and deploy a website cuz and then that website my mom made she's like okay this looks great and there's there's one button you just click it deploy and it's live and you can buy a domain name attach it to it and you know it's as simple as it gets it's get even simpler with some of the stuff we're working on but anyways so that's it's it's uh it's been really interesting to see some of the usage like that I can offer my perspective so I you know I probably should have disclosed a little bit that uh I'm a stack Bas investor Cel the episod Eric actually reached out to show me bolt uh before the launch and uh we know we talked a lot about like the framing of of uh what we're going to talk um how we marketed the thing but also like what bolt was going to need like the whole sort of infrastructure NFI I was the maintainer of the CLI but I won't take claim for the anonymous upload and that's actually the origin story of nlii we can have Matt bman talk about it but um he like that was how nlii started you could drag and drop your zip file or folder from your desktop onto a website it would have a live URL with no signin and so that was the origin of nefi and it just persists to today and it's just like uh it's really nice interesting that both bolt and conition Devon and a bunch of other sort of agent type startups they all use NFI to deploy because of this one feature they don't really care about the other features of NFI but but just because it's easy for computers to use and talk to like if you build an interface for computers specifically that it's easy for them to navigate then they will be used in agents and I think that's a learning that a lot of developer tools companies are having that's my B launch story and if I all stuff uh and then I just wanted to come back to like the web containers things right like I think you put a lot of weight on the technical modes uh I think you also are just like very good at products so you've you've like built a better agent than a lot of people the rest of us including myself who have tried to build these things and we didn't get as far as you did don't short Change yourself on products but I think specifically on on infra on like the sandboxing like this is a thing that people really want alesio has backed e2b which we'll have on at some point talking about like the sort of the server full side but yours is you know inside of the browser serverless it doesn't cost you anything to serve one person versus a million people it doesn't doesn't cost you anything I think that's interesting I think in theory we should be able to like run tests because you can run the full backend like you can run git you can run node you can run uh maybe python uh someday we we talked about this but ideally you should be able to have a full agentic loop running code seeing the errors correcting code and just kind of selfhealing right like I mean isn't that the dream totally yeah totally at least in Bolt we've got we've got a good amount of that uh today I mean there there's a lot more for us to do but one of the nice things cuz like in in web container you know there's a lot of kind of stuff you go Google like uh you know turn Docker container into wasam like there's you'll find a lot of uh stuff out there that will do that the problem is it's very big it's slow um and then that ruins the experience and so what we ended up doing is just writing an operating system from scratch that was just purpose-built to you know run in a browser Tab and the reason being is you these Docker to awesome things will give you a image that's like 60 to 100 mag you know maybe more you know and our our o OS you know kind of clocks in I think I think we're in like a maybe maybe a megabyte or less or something like that I mean it's it it's you know really really you know stripped down this is all basically the task involved is I understand it it's mapping every sing Single Linux CIS call to some kind of web assembly implementation but more or less and and then there's a lot of things actually like when you're looking at a Dev environment there's a lot of things that you don't need that a traditional OS is going to have right right like you know uh audio drivers or you there's just like there's just tons of things right yeah you can kind of you can you can kind of toss them or alternatively what you can do is you can actually be the nice thing this is this kind of comes back to the origins of browsers which is you they they at the beginning of the web and you know the late 90s there was you know two very different kind of Visions for the web where Allan Kay vehemently disagree with the idea that should be document-based which is you know Tim burner's lead you know that and that's kind of what end up winning winning was this document based kind of browsing doc on the web thing Alan Kay he's got this like very famous quote where you said you know you want web browsers to be mini operating systems they should download little mini binaries and execute with like a little mini virtualized operating system in there and what's kind of interesting about the history not to geek out on this as what's kind of interesting about the history is end both of those folks ended up being right documents were actually the the pragmatic way that the web was you know became the most ubiquitous platform in the world to the degree now that this is why web assembly has been invented is that we're doing we need to do more lowlevel things in the browser same thing with web GPU Etc and so all these apis you know to build an operating system came to the browser and that was actually the realization we had in 2017 was holy heck like you can actually you know service workers which were designed for allowing your app to work offline that was the kind of the key one where was like wait a second you can actually now run web servers within a browser like you can run a server that you open up that's wild like full node.js full nodejs like that capability like I can have a URL that Pro programmatically controlled by a web application itself boom like the web can build the web the Primitive is there everyone at the time like we talked to people that like worked on you know Chrome and va8 and they're like uh you I don't know so but it's one of those things you just kind of have to go do it to find out so we spent a couple of years you know working on it and and and and got to work and back in 2021 is when we uh kind of put the first like beta of web container online but um in partnership with Google right like Google actually had to help you get over the Finish Line with yeah 100% because what you know over the years of when we were doing the R&D on the thing kind of the biggest challenge the two ways that you can kind of test how powerful and capable platform are the two types of applications are one video games right because they're just very compute intensive a lot of calculations that have to happen right the second one are idees because you're talking about actually virtualizing the actual runtime environment you are in to actually build apps on top of it which requires sophisticated capabilities a lot you access to you know a good amount of compute power right to to effectively you know building app and app sort of thing so those those are the stress tests so if you're platform is missing stuff those are the things where you find out those are those people building games and idees they're the ones filing bugs on operating system level stuff and for us browser level stuff and so yeah went end up happening is we were just hammering you know the chromium bug tracker and they're like who are these guys and um and they were amazing because I mean just making Chrome Dev tools be able to to debug I mean it's it's not it wasn't originally built right for debugging an operating system right they've been phenomenal working with us and just kind of really pushing the limits but that that it's a rising tide that's kind of lifted all boats because now there's a lot of different types of applications that you can debug with chrome Dev tools they run in a browser that runs more reliably because just the stress testing that that we and you know uh games that are coming to the web are kind of pushing as well but that's awesome about the testing I think like most let's say coding assistant from different will need this Loop of testing and even I would add code review to some to some extent that you mentioned how is testing different from code review code review could be example PR review like a code review that is done at the point of when you want to merge uh Co branches but uh I would say that core review for example checks uh best practices maintainability and it's not just like Ci but it's more than and testing is like uh more like checking functionality Etc so it's different we we call by the way all of these together code integrity but that's a different story just to go back to the to the testing and uh specifically yeah is is since the first yeah so slide yeah we're consistent so if we go back to the testing I think like it's not surprising that for us testing is important and for both is testing important but I want to uh shed some light on different perspective of it like let's think about autonomous driving those startup that are doing autonomous driving for Highway and autonomous driving for the city and I think like we saw uh autonomy of the highway much faster and reaching to level I don't know four or so much faster than those those in the city now in both cases you need testing in like quotequote testing you know verifying validation that you're doing the right thing on on the road and you're reading and Etc but it's probably like uh so different in the city that it could be like actually different technology and I claim that we're seeing something similar here so when you're building the next Wick and I if I was them I was like looking at you and being a bit scared that's what you're disrupting what you just said then basically I would say that for example the uix UI is freaking important and uh because you're you're more aiming for the end user in this case maybe it's an end user that doesn't know how to develop for developers it's also important but let alone those that do not know to develop they need a slick U iix and I think like that's one reason for example I think ker have like really good technology I don't know underlying what's under their Hood but at least what they're saying but I think also their uxui is great it's a lot because they they did their own own ID while if you're aiming for the the city AI suddenly like there's a lot of testing and code review technology that it's not necessarily like that important for example uh let's talk about integration test like probably like a lot of what you're building in Bal at the moment is uh isolated like applications maybe the the vision or or the endgame is maybe like having one solution for for everything like it could be that eventually the highway AI uh companies uh will go into the City and and the other way around but at the beginning there there's a difference and integration tests are are a good example I guess they're a bit less important and when you think about enterprise software they're really important so to recap like I think like the idea of looping and and verifying your test and uh verifying your code and different ways testing or or Cod of viw Etc seems to be important in like in the highway ey and the city ey but in different ways and different like critical for the city even more and more variety actually I was looking to ask you like uh uh like uh what kind of Loops you guys are doing for example when I'm using bolt and I'm enjoying it a lot then um I do see like sometimes you're trying to catch the errors and and fix them and also I noticed that you're break breaking down task into smaller ones and then Etc which is already a common like notion for a year year from a year ago but it seems like you're doing it really well so if you're willing to share anything about it that yeah yeah to yeah I realized I never actually hit the punch line of of uh what I was saying before I mentioned the point about us kind of writing an operating system from scratch because what ended up being important about that is that to your point it's actually a very like compared to like a you know if you're like running cursor on a anyone's machine you kind of don't know what you're dealing with with the OS you're running on there could be an error happens it could be like a million different things right there could be some config there could be it could be God knows what right the thing with web is because we wrote the entire thing from scratch it's actually a unified image basically and we can instrument it at any level that we think is going to be useful which is exactly what we did when we started building bolt is we instrumented stuff at like the process level at the runtime level you know etc etc etc stuff that would just be not impossible to do on local but to do that in a way that works across any operating system whatever is I mean would just be insanely you know insanely difficult to do right and reliably and that's what you saw when You' used bolt is that when an error actually will occur whether it's in the build process or the actual web application itself is failing or anything kind of in between you can actually capture those errors and and and today it's a very primitive way of of uh how we've implemented it largely because the product just didn't exist 90 days ago so we're like got some work ahead of us and and we got to hire some more a little bit but but basically we we presented we say hey this is here's kind of the things that went wrong there's a fix it button and then an ignore button and then you can just hit fix it and then we take all that Telemetry through our agent uh you run it through our agent and say kind of here's the state of the application here's kind of the errors that we got from node.js or the browser or whatever and like da d da and and it can take a cracker actually solving it and it it's actually pretty darn good at at being able to do that that's kind of been a you closing the loop and having it be a reliable kind of Base has seemed to be a pretty big upgrade over doing stuff locally just cuz um I think it's a pretty key ingredient of it and yeah I think breaking things down into smaller tasks like that's that's kind of a key part of our agent and I think like Claude did a really good job with artifacts I think you know us and kind of everyone else has has kind of taken their approach of like actually breaking out certain tasks in a certain order into you know kind of a concrete way and and so actually the core of Bolt D we actually made open source so you can actually like go and and check out like the system prompt and Etc and you can run it locally and whatever have you so anyone that's like interested in this stuff I'd highly recommend taking a look at there's not a lot of like uh stuff that's like open source in this realm that was one of the fun things that we've uh we thought would be cool to do and uh people people seem to like it I mean there's a lot of forks and people adding different models and stuff so it's been cool to see yeah I'm happy to add uh I I added realtime voice for my open de day demo and uh it was really fun to hack with so thank you for doing that I'm going to steal your code back cuz I want that it's funny cuz I built on top of the fork of b. new that already has the multi LM thing and so you just told me you're going to merge that in so then you're going to merge two layers of forks down into this thing so it'll be fun yeah just to touch on like the environment edar you maybe go into the most complicated environments that even the people that work there don't know how to run how much of an impact does that have on your performance like you know is most of the work you're doing actually figuring out environment and like the libraries because I'm sure they're using outdated version of languages they're using outdated libraries they're using Forks that have not been on the public internet before how much of the work that you're doing is like there versus like at the llm level one of the reason I I was asking about uh uh you know what are the step that to to break things down because it really matters uh like what's the tech stack uh how complicated the software is it's hard to figure it out when you're dealing with the real world uh any environment of Enterprise the city what I'm like uh while maybe sometimes like uh I think you do enable like and Bol like to install stuff but it's quite of like old environment and uh that's that's a good thing to do because then you narrow down and and easier to to make things uh work so definitely there are two Dimensions uh I think actually spaces one is is the fact just like installing our software without yet like uh making it work just installing it because we work with Enterprise and Fortune 500 Etc many of them want on Prem solution so you have how many deployment options basically we we had a we did a metric uh metrics uh say 96 options because you know they different dimensions like for example one dimension uh we connect to to your your code management system to your git so are you having like GitHub gitlab uh is it like on cloud or deployed on Prem just an example which model we to use is apis or ours like we have our own model is it test GPT or something test GPT was a huge mistake a name it was cool at back and but I don't think it's a good idea to name name a model after someone else model anyway that's that's my opinion so we got I'm interested in these learnings like things that you changed your mind on eventually when you're building a company you're building a brand and uh you you want to create your own own brand but by the way when I thought about bolt. New I also thought about if it's not a problem because when I think about bald I do think about like a couple of companies that already called This Way curse companies you could call it codium just to okay thank you to touche touche yeah you got to imagine the board meeting before we launch bold one of our investor you can imagine they're like are you yeah are you sure cuz from the investment side you kind some a famous you know notorious bold and they're like are you sure you want to go with that name yeah absolutely at this point we have actually Four models there is a a model for autocomplete there is a model for the chat there is a model dedicated for more for code review and there is a a model that is for code embedding actually if if you might notice that there's not there isn't a good code embedding model out there like can you name one like that dedicated for code like uh yeah I can't more than that there's code indexing and then you can do sort of like the hide for code and then you can you can embed the descriptions of the code yeah but uh you do see a lot of uh type of models that that are dedicated for embedding and for different space different like Fields Etc and I'm not aware like uh and I know that uh if you go to the Bedrock try to find like there's a few Co Ed models but none of them are specialized for for code is there a benchmark that you would tell us to pay attention to yeah so it's coming ah wait for that anyway like we have our we have our models and just to to go back to the the option 96 option of deployment yeah so I'm closing the barricades for us so um so one is like di mention of like what geek deployment you have the other like what models or do you agree to use daughter uh could be like if it's air gapped completely or you want VP and then you have Asia gcp and uh and AWS which which is different do you use kubernetes or do not like because we want to exploit that uh there are companies that do not do that Etc and I guess you know what I mean so that's that's one thing and considering that we are dealing with one of solve for enterprise we needed to deal with that so you asked me about like how complicated is to to solve that complex code I said is just a deployment part and then like uh now to the software we see a lot of different challenges for example some companies they did actually a good job to build a lot of microservices let's not get to the if it's good or not but let's let's for a second assume that it is good a good thing a lot of microservices each one of them has their own repo and now you have tens of thousands of repos and you as a developer want to develop something and uh and I remember me for coming to corporate for the first time I don't know where to look at like uh uh where to find things so just doing a good indexing for that is like a challenge and uh more over the regular indexing the one that you can find we wrote A Few blogs on that by the way we also like have some open source like different than yours but actually three and growing then it's not doesn't work you need to let the tech leads and the companies influence your indexing for example Mark with different uh repos uh with with different colors this is a high quality repo this is a lower quality repo this is a repo that we want to deprecate this as a repo we want to to grow Etc and let that be part of your indexing and only then like things actually work for Enterprise and they don't get to a fatig of oh this is awesome oh but I'm starting like it's annoying me I I I think copilot is an amazing tool but I'm quoting others I mean in G up copilot that they see not so good retention of G up copilot and an Enterprise ooh spicy I saw snapshots of people like uh and we have customers that that are copilot users as well and and also I saw like research some of them is public by the way between 38 to 50% retention for users using K an Enterprise so it's it's not not so good right by the way I don't think it's that bad but it's it's not so good so I think that's a reason because yeah it helps you like autocomplete but then and especially if if you're working on your repo alone but if it's need that context of remote repos that you're codebase that's hard so to make things work there's a lot of work on that like get giving the controllability for the tech leads for the developer platform or developer experience Department in the organization to influence how things are are working a short example because already long if you have like really old Legacy code probably some of it is like is not so good anymore if you just F tune on these codebase then there is a bias to repeat those mistakes or old practices Etc so like you need for example as I mentioned to enable like uh to influence that for example in Cotto you can have a markdown of best practices by the tech leads and uh Cod will include that and relate to that and will not offer like suggestion that are not according to the best practices just as an example okay so like that's just a short list of things that you need to do in order to deal with like the like you mentioned the 100 to 100.1 to 100.2 version of software I just want to say what like what you're doing is extremely impressive because it's a very difficult I mean the business of Stack but kind of before bul came online was sell we sold a version of our IDE that went on Prem so I understand what you're saying about the difficulty of selling on you know getting stuff just working on pram holy hack I mean that that is extremely hard I guess the question I have for you is I mean we we were just doing that with you know kind of kubernetes based stuff the spread of 4tune 500 companies that you're working with how are they doing the inference for this are they are they just are you kind of plugging Into You know azures open AI stuff and aws's Bedrock you know claw stuff or like or they just like running stuff on gpus like what is that like how are these folks approaching that because man what we saw on the Enterprise side I mean I got to imagine that that's a huge challenge everything you said and more like an example like someone could be an uh I don't think any of these is bad like um they made their decision like for example some people they're I want only AWS and VPC on AWS no matter what and then they some of them like there's a subset I will say I'm willing to take models only for from bedrock and not our not ours and we have a problem because there is no good code embedding uh model on bedrock and that's part of what we're doing now with AWS to s that we Sol it in a different way but but if you are willing to run on AWS VPC but run your uh run models on uh on gpus or inferentia like the new version more coming out then our our models can can run on that but everything you said is is right like we see like on Prem deployment where where they have their own own gpus we see Azure where you're using open AI Azure we see cases where you're running on gcp and they want open AI like this cross like uh case although there is Gemini or even Sonet I think is available on gcp just an example so all the all the option that that's part of the the challenge admit that we thought about it but it was even more complicated and it took us a few months to actually that metrics that I mentioned to start like clicking each one of the the blocks there I a few months is impressive I mean honestly just that's okay and every one of these Enterprises is their networking is different just everything's different every single one is different I see understand yeah yeah so so that just cannot be understated like that it is it that's I'm extremely impressive hats off because it could be by the way like for example oh we're only uh AWS uh but our our GitHub Enterprise is on Prem oh we forgot so we need like a private link or whatever like every time like that it's it's it's not and you do need to think about it if you want to work with Enterprise and it's important like I understand like their I respect their point of view and this primarily impacts your architecture your Tech choices like you have to you can't choose some vendors because yeah definitely to be frank it makes it hard for a startup because it means that we want we want everyone to enjoy all the variety of models by the way it was hard for us with our our technology um um I want to open a a a briet like a window I guess you're familiar with our Alpha codium which is an open source we got to go over that yeah so I'll do that quickly um a pin in that yeah actually we didn't have it in the last uh episode so so okay okay we'll come back to that later but let's talk about yeah so so just like shortly and then we can double click on on Alpha codium but Alpha codium is a open source tool you can go and try it and lets you compete on code forces is a is a website and a competition and actually reach a master level level like 95% with a click of a button you don't need to do anything and part of uh what we did there is taking a problem and build breaking it to different like smaller blocks and and then the models are much doing much better job like we all know it by by now that taking small task and solving them by the way even 01 which is supposed to be able to do system two thinking like Greg from open Al like uh hinted is doing better on these kind of problems but still it's very useful to break it down for 01 despite 01 being able to think by itself and that's what we presented like just a month ago openi released that now they are doing 93 percentile with 01 II of the an international Olympiad uh M information sorry I forgot exactly I told you I forgot and um and we took their 01 preview with Alpha codium and did better like it just shows like and and there is a big difference between the preview and the the ioi it shows like that these models are not still system to thinkers and there's a big difference so maybe they're not complete system to yeah they need some guidance I call them system 1 1.5 we we can we can dive in I thought about it like you know I care about this philosophy stuff and I think like we didn't see yet even close to a system to thinking I can elaborate later but closing the bricket it's like we take Alpha codium and as as as our principle of thinking we take tasks and break them down to smaller tasks and then we want to explore the best model to solve them so I want to enable anyone to enjoy o1 and Sonet and Gemini 1.5 Etc but at the same time I need to develop my own models as well because some of the fortun 500 want to have all Air gapped or or whatever so that that's a challenge now you need to support so many models and into some extent I would say that the flow engineering the the breaking down to to different blocks is a necessity for us why because when you take a big block a big problem you need a very different prompt for each one of the models to actually work but when you take a like a big a problem and break it into small tasks we can talk how we do that then the prompt matters less what I want to say like uh all this like as a startup trying to do different deployment getting all the juice that you can get from Models Etc is a big problem and one need to think about it and one of our mitigation is that process of taking tasks and and breaking them down that's why I really interested to know how you guys are doing it and part of what we do is also open source so you can see there's a lot in there but yeah flow over prompts I I do believe uh that that does make sense I feel like there's a lot that both of you can sort of exchange notes on breaking down problems and I just want you guys to just go for it whatever like this this is fun to watch yeah I mean what's super interesting is the context you're working in is is because you know for for us too with Bol we've started thinking because you know our our kind of existing business line was you going you know behind the fire wall right we're like how do we do this adding the inference aspect on we're like okay how does because there I mean there's not a lot of prior art right I mean like this is all new you know this is all new so I definitely I'm going to have a lot of questions for you I'm here we're very open by the way we have a paper on it a blog like whatever the Ala codium GitHub and we we'll put all this in the show notes yeah and then and even the new results 01 we we published it and I love that and I also just I think spiritually I like your approach of being transparent and you know cuz I think there's there's a lot of hypium around the AI stuff and and a lot of it is it's just like you have these companies that just kind of keep their stuff close and and then just max hype it but but then it's it's kind of nothing and I think it kind of gives a bad rep to the incredible stuff that's that's actually happening here and so I think it's it's stuff like what you're doing where I mean true Merit and you're cracking open actual code for others to learn from and use you know that strikes me as the right approach and and it's great to hear that you're making such incredible I have something to share about open source like most of her tools are we have like open source version and then like a premium pro version but it's not an easy decision to do that I actually want to ask you about your strategy but I think like in your case there is in my opinion relatively a good strategy where a lot of parts of Open Source and but then you have the deployment and the environment which is not right if I get it correctly and then there's there's a clear like almost hugging face like model like yeah you can do that but why should you try to deploy it yourself deploy it with us but in our case and I'm not sure you're not going to hit also some some competitors and and I guess you you are I wanted to ask you for example on some of them in our case like one day uh we looked on one of our competitors that is doing code review we are a platform we have like the code review the testing Etc spread over the ID to get and in each agent we have a a few startups or big big like uh incumbents that are doing only that so we noticed one of our competitors having not only a very similar UI of our open source but actually even our typo and you know you sit there and and you kind of like yeah we we we're not that good like we don't use enough like grammarly whatever and uh and we had like a a couple of these and we saw it there and and then it's a challenge like and I want to ask you like uh you know bald is doing so well and then you open source it so I think I know what that my answer was I gave it before but still interesting to hear what what you think geohot said back um I think he when he was I I don't know he was up to it at this exact moment but I think when on comma AI you know all that stuff's open source and someone had asked him like why why is this open source and he's like if you're not actually confident that you can go and crush it and and build the best thing then yeah you should probably keep your stuff close Source right like that he said something that K I'm probably kind of butchering it but I thought that was a really it was kind of a really good and that's and that's not to say that you should just open source everything because for obvious reasons there's like kind of strategic things you have to kind of take in mind but I actually think a pretty liberal approach as as liberal as you kind of can be can really make a lot of sense because I mean that is so validating that like one of your competitors is taking your stuff and they're like yeah like let's just you know kind of tweak the Styles and you know I mean clearly right I think it's kind of healthy because it keeps I'm sure back at HQ that day when you saw that you're like all right well let's we we go to we have to grind even harder right to make sure we stay ahead and so I think it's actually a very useful motivating thing for the teams cuz you might feel this period of comfort I think a lot of comp will have this period of comfort where you know they're they're not feeling the competition then one day they get disrupted so kind of putting stuff out there and letting people push it forces you to Face Reality soon right and and actually feel that incrementally so you can kind of adjust course and that's for us the the open source version of Bolt has had a lot of features people have been begging us for like persisting chat messages and checkpoints and stuff within the first week that stuff was landed in the open source versions and they're like why can't you ship this it's in the open people have forked it like we're like we're trying to keep our servers and gpus online like we're just and but it's been great cuz it's um you know like the folks in the community did a great job kept us on our toes and uh and and there and we' we've got to know most of these folks too at this point that you know have been building these things and so it actually was very instructive like okay well if we're going to go kind of land this there's some ux patterns we can kind of look at and the code is open source to this stuff you know what's great about these what's not so anyway so I think that's um you know anyways netet I think it's it's it's awesome I think from a competitive point of view for us for us I think in particular what's interesting is is the uh you kind of the core technology of web container going and I think that right now there there's really nothing that's kind of on par with that and we also like we have a business of because you know web container runs in your browser but to make it work it you have to install stuff from mpm you have to like make pores bypass requests like connected databases which all require server side you know proxying or acceleration and so we actually sell web container as a service the original one of the core reasons we open sourc kind of the core components of Bolt when we launched was that you know we think that there's going to be a lot more of these AI in your browser AI Cen experiences kind of like what anthropic did with artifacts and Claude by the way artifacts uses web containers not yet no yeah should I strike that I think that they've got their own thing at the moment but there's been a lot of interest in web containers from folks doing things in that sort of Realm and you in in the AI labs and startups and everything in between you know and so I think there there'll be I a good you know over over the coming months there'll be lots of things to being announced to folks kind of adopting it but yeah I think I think effectively uh okay I'll say this if if you're a large model lab and you want uh you know to build uh you know sandbox environments inside of your chat app uh you should call wait wait wait wait wait wait wait like uh I have a question about that like I think like open AI um you know they felt that people are not using their model as they would want to uh so they build chat GPT but I would say that chat PT now defines open AI I know they're they're doing a lot business from their their apis but still is this like how you think like isn't B do new as is your your business now like why don't you like put focus on that instead of the what's your advice as a Founder well well you're right and so so going into it we candidly we were like okay Bol new this thing is super cool like we think people are stoked well we think people would be stoked but we were like maybe that's lad you know best case scenario after month one we'd be mind-blown if we added a couple hundred K of AR or something you know and and we were like but we think there's probably going to be a you know an immediate huge BS because we there was some early pull on uh you know folks wanting to put web container into their product offerings you know kind of similar to what bolt is doing or whatever we were actually prepared for the the inverse outcome here but uh well I guess we've seen poll on both but I mean what's happened with Bol and you're right it's actually the same strategy as like open AI or anthropic where you know we have a our you chat gbt to open AI apis is you know bolt to web container and so that's we've kind of taking that same approach and we're seeing I guess kind of some of the similar results except our right now the the revenue side is extremely lopsided to to bolt right I think like if you ask me what's my device I think you have three options one is to focus on Bolt the other is to focus on the web container the third is to raise $1 billion and whatever and do them both I'm I'm serious like I think like otherwise you need to choose and if if you raise enough money like and I think it's big bucks because you're going to be chased by competitors and uh it's I think it will be challenging like to do to both like and maybe maybe you can I don't know like we we do see these numbers right now raising above $100 million even without having a product uh you can see these it's excellent advice and I think I think what's been amazing but also kind of challenging is as you you know kind of we're like trying to trying to forecast you know okay what where are these things going because I mean in the initial weeks I think us and all the you know investors in the company we were kind of sharing this with we were it was like this is cool okay we added 500k wow that's crazy wow we're at a million now okay you kind of you know most things you have this kind of the tech crunch launch of initiation and then the the thing of sorrow and this is this is just you know we haven't if if there's going to be a downtrend it just it's just not coming yet now that we're kind of looking ahead we we're 6 weeks in so now we're getting enough confidence in our convictions to go okay this this kind of seems to be this seems to be the trend line and kind of how I tell you what reason why I think like where where is Jasper they actually just announced some new numbers recently like they you know they're they're still surviving they have gone down a lot I think the the peak that I heard was 100 million AR and and now you know there's like tens of these so I think like um the and their success was phenomenal like what I I see at Bal and and I think like if if you want to keep that probably who am I like I'm just like giving my you need to focus because you are like you are going to see like Wicks I think you're disrupting their market and you open sourced some of it and they have containers I believe and you need to fight like I can tell you that when we open source I I share with you like a small competitor but I can tell you I have a friend who's built a billion doll company uh and more like when we released alphac codium he like sent me a private email asking what the [ __ ] did you just do like why did you release you should have kept it yeah like you res that open source like um you know I'm thinking build some stuff and now I can do that much EAS much much more easily like I can tell you my answer and I think I thought that maybe you'll answer as well although like I think Bal already very promising for us like Alpha codium One is like GPT one I agree with you like being open and open source Etc really helps to improve the product Community Etc but at some point open I closed their GPT 3.5 or or whatever and uh that was part of my answer like Alpha codium is the agent that is compatible with uh gpd1 and there is a lot to do for these agents to actually get that like moment that we had with GPT 3.5 Etc as agents yeah I think you're did right and that I think it just comes back to it kind of comes back to what GI Hut said right it's like you know if you want to win there's no other option than out hustling everyone else you know and and so I think that's kind of and then out hustling in the sense really meaning building the best product building the best experiences and so I think um that's the only way kind of almost any route and um you know kind of Open Source some of the stuff just kind of burns the ships in a sense right and then maybe that's the simplest way of saying it just you're you're burning the ships but it also it it builds a lot of Goodwill you I mean there's lot tons of benefits to it yeah Salesforce are doing that right they're now going to be or whatever so you can also we we're going to try to get mark on the podcast and uh they're they as good friends with Salesforce any parting thoughts any you know trends that you're you're like super excited about if we're talking about trends I go back to our original uh podcast where we talked about like the idea that the software world is Divi is like built from specs test and and code and I think like you can see that uh like one dimension are company startups that are rethinking the entire like uh development uh environment like I think like bolt Etc and another dimension is like where is their focus is it like on the spec is on the test and on the code and I think like it's interesting to see that from from that view we'll see more startup and more amazing announcement like of new you know directions New Philosophy so I think we'll see startup like focusing let's build everything from the spec to some extent I would say that like bolt is for my understanding you can say better some somewhere in the line between the spec and the code because you start like I saw your demos you're trying to describe like things like not just in one row because you want like to look like like you wanted it so it's on that edge between connecting between spec and code and you see others like uh like I think like all the IDS most of them are are the new IDs the fork are there we are like more Focus from the test and to the code and to to the spec Etc so these are the trends I think like we will see that and uh and I think like the the another dimension to to consider is like is it more for the highway AI for the developers maybe not even like technical person or or or is it for for the Enterprise and that also like gives you like different products if they are aiming for different ICP different ideal client profile they will approach this triangle of spec and test and and code and and and that's like how I see the world and what I'm noticing is that we're seeing more and more of those new startups new interfaces that is are not focused on code for example having talking more about the spec talking more about the testing eventually I think that that's where the world is going to like uh the code is going to be there and where there will be developers Etc but as agent improves and capabilities of the llms and and Integrations to different parts of of the environment development environment we're going to see more and more like focusing on the spec and and the test basically like these two might unite a spec and a test because you can say that tests are runnable specs right to some extent so like that's another way to look at it yeah that's literally on the slide here runnable test right here yeah I'm consistent look I talked about system one and system 2 like uh more than a year ago and now now with1 people are talking about uh system one and but but I think we'll talk about it again because I think they're totally totally wrong about A1 being a system two so like uh it is now like in the hype or whatever talking about that but I think like the agents are the one that will take us towards system to and the more they are aware of their environment and aare of that sometimes they don't know what they don't know then we'll really get to system to but that's like a deeper discussion that's a deeper discussion uh love the philosophy talk that we had last time as well all right so we're we're we're back onto bolt and uh you know itar had to leave for for another interview but we were just talking about like the what happened post launch right and um you know I held this like sort of emergency Council of of advisers for you uh because we had never seen this before and I was like okay I'm going to call all the smartest people I know to to to join this thing which was extremely helpful and I'm so appreciative there's been a a handful of meting you made you made a couple you made a You made one Higher out of that yeah cuz I you know it was like I think I I can't remember where we were at kind of ARR wise uh when I when I messaged you it was like you messaged me at like 2 or 3 okay and then by the time we got everything together it was 4 and then yeah now it's at since Eric sat down five minutes but I mean it sounds like it accelerated cuz you told me it was like 100k 200k a day yeah and now it's accelerated yeah this this past I mean every week has been kind of a blowout week as far as u i is it Tik Tok is it we are digging into the degree that we can of just like where all this stuff's coming from I there's a a ton of Word of Mouth right so that you can't which you can't just like look by refer right so just ton of direct but yeah I mean there's a lot of Tik Tok there's a ton of YouTube It's kind of I think been a sensation in the sort of like uh you know entrepreneurial build your own SAU Indie Hawker you know even developer CES and I think too like our team's been doing a really good job our folks just kind of like flipped a switch and like we you know people were just working through the weekends or whatever to get stuff fixed and and so the product and you'll see people people say this on there online like today there was a Tweet someone was like yeah I tried this like the first week and like couldn't get whatever to work came back today you know six weeks later and this is ridiculous like this is so good right and so I think there there's been an incredible amount of improvement to the product to the agent also to like the underlying models too like Sonet uh you know they just happen to do an update you know uh with their with their l a couple weeks ago and and so you know when we put our new agent online and the new Sonet we suck a huge bump in conversion just based on that and so any so yeah like you know we've we've gone I when we were chatting that must have been three weeks ago you know maybe an average of 100K AR bad per day and you know this week I will see I've said this every week but we'll see if it holds you know it's like kind of we've the past couple days have been like you know half a million of AR per day just I mean which you know insane I mean you know I think today we had our Peak we've had Peak traffic you know just kind of set the previous you and that's kind of been you know every day this week but anyway so yeah I think things things just continue to accelerate which is kind of blowing my mind you know because it's just the the sheer numbers of the stuff are just like mindboggling I think you you almost suffered from like the Twitter demo issues that other people had like the first time I saw bold I saw the demo and I was like oh that's cool like I didn't go to try it because I was like I've seen so many of these that it's like I don't know if it's actually going to work and then two days ago I signed up to use it I was building a Luma replacement I'm done with Luma and I was like man this thing really works I was like and I I already knew you of course I was like man This Thing Really Works what the [ __ ] I was like it's actually I don't know if it's like the model if it's like how you prompt it but it's so good at coming out with like the simplest thing to implement so the Luma example right so first I was like create an RSVP page for an event and it created a wedding RSVP I don't know if it's your fault I don't know if you Ved the a um and then I was like well now it needs to have a way to create more events and it added that then I was like now it needs a way to like have a admin page to modify event and maybe what I would have done as a developer is like well I'll create a different like admin view you know with all the events and then I'll have like the front end thing and instead what it did is like it created like a admin view toggle on top and then like just a pencil button on every page to edit them in line you know and that was it and I was like yeah that works just as well and like for the model that's probably the simplest way to do it because it like limits the amount of files that are there y can you talk just more about how much of this is like the model coming out with it how much you're prompting it to kind of like be very like compressed and concise a ton of it is the model but I think what's interesting though is you know kind of the Baseline model if I just to like if kind of like try and put it into like a you a way if you had to quanti quantify you know the effect is OB the model is like this sort of like 10x multiplier you're how good the B line model is huge huge swing and then kind of what you can do on top of that you can squeeze out three 4X kind of more and so that's kind of where the realm of you know prompt engineering and a you know multi-agent approaches Etc kind of kick in and so I I think I think with us you know our folks like with the guy on our side that um you know led the web engineering like that kind of our core technology for the past you know seven years here you know his name is Dominic Elm based out of Germany and he was one of the founding Engineers of the company you previous to Stacks he actually was doing machine learning and he basically built a stack Blitz like online IDE for machine learning so think like kind of like Google collab sort of thing where like hugging face has their kind of version back in 2016 there wasn't as much of a market for this stuff but so he he had been doing a lot of you know training you know ml models and that sort of thing so I just you know as we began uh you know kind of digg into AI stuff you over the past year he's been kind of leading that off and so a lot of it I yeah I really attribute to to Dom's uh specific angle because he has deep understanding of our technology and how it works because he's you led the engineering on web container but has a you know deep understanding of how these models work going and actually kind of writing out these uh you know whether it's like the the the prompt engineering aspect of it or multi-agent or whatever have you you know that's sort of like that much context and then and the other folks on the team are are you know in the same same sort of spot they've um been working on this stuff I think we've been able to squeeze out a lot more than I've seen almost anything else out there at least in the term of building web apps at least but I think it's I think it's kind of just because we uh uh we have you more context on a fewer number of heads at the company so we can kind of connect the dots a bit faster you know yeah this part of the issue with the whole raise a billion dollars thing like you actually run very lean and that's that's actually been to your advantage totally and I think you and I think we we have to staff up because I me we went from uh you call like call it zero customers to you know uh 20 30,000 kind of you know in six weeks we have to have certainly more uh customer support customer success Stuff Etc but you know also just on on engineering um we have to ramp up but I do think that there's a uh we saw this in the 2021 cycle right where you know adding tons more people can be a thing that really hurts you know the company because you can it's just harder it's really hard to manage lots of people not if you're a big enough company to warant into certain headcount 100% you kind of have to do it right but um I think for us it's worked just to really you know grow grow the team slowly and intentionally and so I think we're going to take the same approach here at a bit of a faster clip than we were previously but um to me that would just be general advice to startups is like slowly intentionally as fast as you can to meet demand or whatever part of what I felt like you're in a unique position to talk about but also kind of what we went through in our in our uh call was I have pmf now what is is kind of what I've been I've been saying and so like I think the first answer is hire data scientists yeah because we have to sort of figure out like from our data you're now sitting on on a ton of different customers and we don't really know the different customer segments starting to get an idea of turn you're starting to get an idea of like segmentation you already had data enrichment one of my most interesting quotes from you from that session was that because you were selling to Enterprise for so long you had already set up all that stuff and it just like wasn't useful for more sort of developer bottomup Centric approach yeah well and particularly because For the First Time in the company's history we're we're selling primarily to almost non-developers yeah um and so everything that we've ever all the playbooks we had not relevant here basically right so the and you one of uh one of our investors I talked with earlier this week it basically brought up a really great point which is like you're now A B Toc company and how you operate needs to reflect that which is which is what I don't know which is basically um from an analytics perspective like it you're tracking everything right and and then to your point you have you have people kind of Round the Clock slicing and dicing data to understand who are these people coming in who are the types of people you actually want to retain versus people that you know are just going to churn out and that's okay because they're not the actual like ICP that you're going for right when you're building stuff for enterprise software the bar is a lot lower and and so kind of to from the conversation before one of the biggest and this is kind of we found with Stacks which is kind of interesting you know you mentioned it's like it's as a startup it's very hard to sell on Prem extremely true but if you can do it it's like the promis land because you know these these companies uh you know they Fortune 500s they can write really large checks and so when you're going and selling to them it doesn't matter so much like on your website sure you want to track the conversion to the Enterprise contact form or whatever right but what what actually really matters is like the a lot of human touch points of hey we want to have a quarterly call after just getting installed this stuff there's a whole playbook for that you need to hire sales Engineers that could be on the ground floor and helping people install it then after that you got to okay how do we make sure they're constantly successful because you can't access like we can our Enterprise customer instances we have no idea how often they're using them why because that the whole point is that we can't see what they're up to for uh you know good reason right like they they need to own their data and so the way it's actually much a very complicated problem of how do you have like build relationships where where everyone's getting on calls they can share kind of the Telemetry that that they can see within their instance and you can kind of extrapolate that make sure they're happy and successful so so that's there's a whole art of that of doing Enterprise well that uh we've gone and done and and and closed these folks totally unrelated to doing BC completely completely unrelated for the most part so hey so that so that you as a company we're kind of reorienting you know our focus on uh okay going and actually really leaning in on analytics whatever have you and fortunately like my co-founder and I the the Enterprise business of stacks was the first time we had ever done Enterprise primarily like thanks to the company we did before was B Toc like we were selling people courses on how to do web development basically right so a lot of the skill set that uh you know I had built up there I able to pull that back off the shelf dust it off sharpen the blade you know I'm we're doing email marketing we're doing live streams you know so so that's it's kind of cool to you know be shifting back to some of the the the where we cut our teeth on back in the day how did you pick the pricing because I had to pay uh and and and there's like that's fantastic that's Fant you want to like slight slightly like it's like you got to it's like it's like you're running out of tokens dude I was like [ __ ] I'm running out of tokens like I don't want to run out of tokens but there's like five different tiers yeah right which are kind of like token based and capacity based Y how do you kind of reconcile that and the consumer side where maybe the consumer doesn't even really need to know what a token is right like on that like your mom probably doesn't really care what a AI token is how did you structure it to start how did you come up with that and then maybe ideas that you have to like improve or like modify that totally yeah so we so when we first launched so stack butut is like we were an Enterprise play right and so um when we launched in 2017 I think we turn pricing 2018 or 2019 like it was free for a long time and then we had a $9 plan and that was just the way it was it was it was kind of like our our $150 hot dog like this you know just low price just you know it wasn't the primary rev driver and we just wanted to you say hey pay for some more storage and private projects or whatever and so we went to launch bolt again like our expectation was hey we'll probably get a good number of people that'll sign up and be excited about it and you know we're not too concerned you know we're just we're just not we were unprepared for the tsunami that hit and so after going online the first week we're like wow this is cool there's I mean it just kept growing and then once we hit week two I mean we were just nine bucks was I mean the cheapest AI coding thing you can get maybe other than copile but like we were overrun by support tickets and just in just the sheer volume of people coming in it just laws of supply and demand we were like okay this is there's no way we can scale to meet this also the people coming in are burning through their tokens and there's no way to actually like buy more of these things and nine bucks is just you can't get that much inference out of that and so here's the other thing that's interesting about bolt compared to like something like co-pilot or whatever and this kind of this sorry a little bit of a roundabout way to answer your question but basically what we ended up at that moment we ended up realizing is that when you use co-pilot what it's sending up it doesn't provide a lot of context of your code base they try and reduce the amount of context as much as they can and I I think you know the origins of this stuff is that everyone kind of wants this like low price point where it's like all you can eat so it just kind of it kind of feels like because it's like almost like Netflix it's like I'll pay a thing and I can just do as much of you know movie watching as I want and I think I think that that kind of mentality when these first AI products came kind of makes sense they're like okay we we don't want to meter it because that doesn't feel good right but the problem is that then they're incentivized to not have it be able to capable like the more context you give it the more it can do and that's the magic of of what we were doing with bolt is we're giving it all the context we possibly can and that's why you can go to it and say make me an RSVP site and it does it because it has context the the entire state of the application you know etc etc and that's what makes it so accurate versus if you go to co-pilot and say that they'll be you know it might punch out a react component that's the button de create the thing but not actually more than that so anyway so um you know and when at the time when people had bought the $9 plan they were like I want to give you more money I want you buy more tokens how do I do that and so our team scrambled that weekend we just turned it around and just you we said okay well what do we think is reasonable and and and said Okay so let's go you immediately double the prices of the of the base here because it's just not enough what people are getting on for 9 bucks so that'll be that seems reasonable kind of in line with everyone else and then we added 50100 and $200 plans cuz we're like that should be enough and so yeah so that that's kind of the origins of it and and um it was it was people that use it fall in love with it and they want to use more of it and the problem is that inference is expensive and so we're not actually taking you know to date on the on the revenue we've done we've not really taken a margin at all on this stuff because we're just trying to put all the value back into the folks that are they're using the tool and just gting the the Maxum amount of value out of the but it's really key to kind of the magic of of the experience and so the other the other thing kind of worth mentioning is there's kind of the AR number but then we you can also buy additional tokens you know just with usage based billing effectively and that's accounting for an additional 20 30% of of Revenue that's coming to the company people are actually using this to do their jobs like you think think about a web development agency before this thing they're going in using figma to make a design they have to pay the designer they have to like punch that out into code kind of man maybe like copile can help a little bit with punching out this thing that they're coming to this thing and there's just wild story online where it's like guy B local bakery is like we need a website he's like okay I'm going to charge you 1,000 bucks they're like okay that sounds great reasonable price 30 minutes later he's like here's a deploy preview of your thing how's that look they're like wow holy crap this is I'm not giving you a th000 bucks but they did they they were they were mind blown because they were like this usually takes months yeah you know so some of the biggest power users are people that build websites for a living because this is the the alpha on this is insane that's almost like the gap right it's like it used to be that if I ask you before this to do a website and in 30 minutes you return to me and you give me something I'm like you know you're probably just copying something else you done before you know versus now it's almost like it doesn't really matter how much time it takes you because everybody's going to be so fast with these things it's more like the value and that's why in your pricing TR was almost like there's only really going to be like either $20 a month users or like $1,000 a month users you know it's almost like who's going to use the $50 a month because it's kind of like in between between being infrequent user and being like a power user you know so yeah it makes sense that you have like a big part of like on demand on top ofp yeah on the 50 there's actually a lot of people on the one I think it's because it's like enough to actually like for developers that are using this to just kind of like punch out components or designs or whatever kind of gets them enough for you know kind of in a given month or whatever and so it's been interesting to kind of see the the you know the the upgrades that happened but what's been kind of cool about the product is it's um and again I think this is kind of novel and this is you know us being maybe a little more transparent than we should be or something but like I suspect we're I think we're going to see a lot more of this because we're hitting an inflection point coming back to the co-pilot thing part of the problem before is that it didn't matter if you provided more context the models just weren't good enough to know what to even do with it that's not the case now you know just one one uh you know story of like one of the first people uh one of the power first Power users that adopted bull was this gal in Thailand who's a PM in a software Banking Company and she had an idea for this app called viral . which is basically it's a tool that uh if you want to make viral Tik toks and stuff it's like what's the hook of the video to make people watch right and so basically she you you can go and like see it goes and uh extracts hooks from other people's videos and helps you with like you know AI to write your own and um she originally the week before bolt launch she put that on upwork and uh you know some I think a developer in like Ukraine had quoted her you know $5,000 and it's going to take like three months or something like that reasonable time frame right for an app like that reasonable price the week after that bolt came out she bought the $50 plan and she had the app built within a week or two and so you're talking about like B that's it and it's beautiful it's she she did an incredible job right and so the numbers are are wild $5,000 three months to $50 and in like a week yeah you're got to charge more right it's but so so it's it's kind of like so you know there's there's people like when we've had a lot of people go this pricing is insane and and we're like well we're not even taking really margin at the moment on it you know but also but when you when you compare that to the price of actually going and building the cost of building quality software today anyone who knows the price of building quality software the alpha is obvious right it's a 99% you know cost production and 5x faster uh you know delivery time you know so anyway so that's I think we're one of the first products that have actually come out kind of proving that you know in in a revenue way to kind of underscore the point as you can imagine we've had you know kind of V you know Venture Capital firms kind of reach out kind of you know curious kind of you know what we're up to or whatever and so you know one of the most uh you know there's kind of one of the the most notable ones or whatever reached out so we kind of sent them you know you know kind of our numbers um actually it was the investor update Sean that that I think you you know the you know the one you saw kind of gave him a snapshot of it and they um one of their analysts accidentally replied all on what we had sent them and with with the analysis and so on this part they're you know one of the things they said was we haven't seen anything this kind of eye opening to see people going to $200 here on this sort of thing haven't seen anything else like that in the space CU I I think this is very new because of the new model capabilities right where people you know it makes sense like you're willing to pay more money for this stuff so this is something I've talked about before in terms of matching the dollar amount of spend to the capabilities of the AIS the chart that I published in the past was you know opening a has like five levels of agess and level level one is sort of like a chat boss level two is reasoning level three is Agents four is organizations five is some something super super human I don't remember what the the exact levels are but each you can sort of each match each of them with like tiers like $20 is like the trpc tier $200 is where you're at $2,000 is higher 20,000 200,000 right like you can see levels where it makes sense I think bright wave is also there by the way like I I don't know what bright wave charges but it's higher right than a chat gbt and like you have to deliver more value for that but you you can do it now yep so then why not everyone should do it I I think we're going to see a lot more of this I think we're going to see and I think you know for AI Coen specifically this is the first moment where I think that there's been that moment where where it goes from zero to one where it's like yep the price you know the value the value is so like of what you can get out of these things is so much higher than it was you know three six months ago that uh I I think we're going to see I think we're going to see a lot more of this like we might you know you bolt is is I think one of the first things but uh yeah I mean it's just uh to me it's it's inevitable that we're going to see many more things kind of leveraging this this sort of use case and the amount of efficiency you can get out of using these systems right so yeah yeah because I mean the Bol Arbitrage would be quote the price based on the query you know yeah you're selling high value tokens yeah it's like hey it's like your mom it's like you wouldn't charge your mom $2,000 to tell her stories but like you know this person doing an app and like a product on it yeah you got to pay more you know but it's hard right now I understand it's like it's really hard to figure out how much you can push it how much value the person will get out of the thing you know so I want to riff a little bit on like stuff like this right I think you nailed a lot with the design system you know one of the differences between open source bolt and the one that you have is actually like you you spend a lot of time on on the design system I think right most things just look great when they come out but I think there's also a whole backend portion that they need was that a challenge is there anything that you sort of like figuring out that you want to RI on yeah so I think one one of the main things you think you hit the nail on the head which is you kind of going into putting bolt online we originally again we we've been selling to developers and we were kind of like this is a tool for prototyping and they'll download their code but what end up we end up finding in the early user testing was how important the deployment story was and how and and this is something you said to me specifically you're like backend this needs to like backend needs to be part of this like logging in like off I just to Triple confirm you're dead right that's been that has been the absolute number one thing that folks coming to Bol you know are looking to do is build a real app with a back end with building and so one of this guy um Mauricio he's one of our power users he's like there's three things that like every app that I'll ever want to build and build any of these other people in this community you know three things a database off and payments those three things right so so that's um admin dashboard we we can do that pretty pretty decently um pretty decently every database needs an W WP admin yes yes correct totally totally and so yeah today I think like viral hooks uh for example I think she's using Firebase for a and database and that sort of thing you so I think Firebase and super base those are the two things that that just work incredibly well and so that's actually the point where we're at now where you know right now it's uh you know folks have to still you know kind of go to super base manually spin up a thing come back to bolt put the things you know it's like that sort of processing thing with Firebase um and each of those products going to have their own little quirks you have to there's like kind of steps right and so B base yeah B Bas yeah I I think yeah I think um initially we're like okay there should just be a way to like uh for bolt to just go and spin up these things on their behalf and just and just you know um both of them have apis to do so I'll go even further like have like uh pre-warm instances that you just assign like it's already spun up right so it's so it's like kind of serous feeling even it's like not really but like uh yeah just pre-warm and then just kind of assign it when whenever someone great Point yeah just keep keep one fire base in the hopper basically 110 100 I don't know more generally this is what I felt that I wanted to do on our call which is like when you have pmf yes you want to invest some time in like understanding your customers and do a data analytics and like tighten tighten things up in general like tighten up the pricing tighten up the the cost and all that but then like you also have to work on like what is next like the next level in growth like you can still inflect yeah I don't know what that is uh but you know I I want to I wanted to keep pushing you and I don't know if I I I did mostly cuz I was I was um serving as facilitator on that call that's what I think like I think you got to still keep pushing the frontier and I don't know what it what what it is but like you know I want to hear what you got thinking about I think there's you we've addressed just a lot of the blow hanging P Zer stuff then and we've actually seen we've kind of the the you there's there's key moments where it's just kind of like been going like that which has been cool cuz it's like okay well we we're just getting started this is just the this is just the fixing obvious things part fundamentally I think a what a lot of people are coming here to do is just how can we just make it faster to go from idea to production and a lot of is like I when I have to go to Firebase super base spin something up run a Migra you know like at a table but it's like the agent can do that you know so that stuff should be baked in yeah same thing with the the deployment side it's like right now it's going to netlify but people have to create an NFI account and go and and do that right and so I think one of the things we're going to end up doing here is just having the hosting um be baked in and so i' been talk with um with Matt over at NFI about this because they actually have a way to kind of white La y the white label stuff and so cuz people are going to make a website you know and so it's uh I mean that means also you take over domain registration can you imagine right like you a couple months from now you come to this thing you're like I want to make uh I want to make an RSVP site right and it's like uh great do you you know do you have a name for it do you want you know a domain you're like I I don't know a name it's like well here's like 10 options and the docs are available do they look good yep that one does okay we want to buy it okay great it bought the DNS is pointed at the thing should we start building this okay does this look good yep okay am I okay to push just the prod yep that looks good you know like that's without leaving the product right so to me like itar was the first to actually say like you are the new Wix I never I personally never thought about it that way Wix is A10 billion do company where you want to go you know cuz you still have a choice here from what we're hearing from the folks using the product I think um uh I don't think Wix is even able to solve their need you know um but but not to say that we don't want to you know that that what you're saying is not what we want but but I mean yeah like I think we want to solve folks problems and I think that there's a uge Gap in the market of being able to build you know kind of more sophisticated highquality software like websites in a way that for someone who's a non-engineer and so I think there's a huge market for that and obviously even if you're trying to build a a wedding website yeah this is this is easier and faster right so I love it you know again coming to the origins of why Albert my co-founder and I are doing this is we've always just loved building stuff on the web it's like this I this is the tool from even when stack was just the IDE interface to the technology it's like with this is the thing we wish we had when we were 13 years old you know and and with both oh my God this is the thing I wish we had when 13 years old I'm so glad that my daughter's going to have this thing you know so any yeah I think it makes me pretty pretty stoked that um people are going to be able to actually build amazing web applications um that can do really sophisticated things you know so yes I think the short answer is heck yeah I mean if you know that sort of Market totally right up a rally one other angle that I wanted to pursue was also the other languages uh you know you're very J we've talked about python forever Ruby maybe is that important you know like the previous generation of uh Site Builders were mostly Ruby shops yeah and some PHP do we want to capture that or are we just like you know always bet on JavaScript and just let JavaScript take over the world you know I think I think we're we're we're certainly with great interest interested in like you know other languages and we have like you minimal support of python and some CST plus stuff in web container that you can like run or whatever I think especially with the with the stuff we're seeing though it's the language is is kind of ancillary to the to the to the thing well there's the ecosystem of like I want to end up with a code base that I can hire humans on to do the stuff that b cannot do yeah true and I I think in that sense like the the the JavaScript nodejs ecosystem is huge well established so it's I think you'll be certainly be able to get people to work on this stuff and I think the only thing that would be missing is it's like are you building web apps that where a lot of the functionality is only in libraries that are in python or something right and I I think just kind of seeing the the applications that are being built here you know I think that'd be like data science and like ML and that sort of thing and so that's we're not seeing a lot of that stuff you know and then but I think that's like wor like kind of more generic approaches like what reet's doing where they're spinning up you know real VMS you can kind of run anything and I think they started off with like doing python service I actually I haven't tried um their their you know their new agent stuff that's uh based on rep agent yeah we're we're close friends replit has the database the sort of live hosting everything integrated that you're going to want to build and you're I think you're on a collision course with them to be honest we'll see cuz I I'm curious uh you're not the first person to to say that I'm curious to see how it shakes out cuz I I think the challenge is focus you know when you are what's kind of the end goal that firmly for developers you're positioning it for non-developers like that's yeah and even even getting even if focusing on a language or an ecosystem as well because again the problem is that these things can just break in a million ways and so part of a lot of the work in making the experience better like how do you get so like how make it someone get an idea into their fingertips and live on prod right there's so much stuff in between there and a lot of it is just errors that happen and how do you handle those and a lot of that comes down to having a giant database of common errors that you can maybe even fine-tune stuff on at some point right so doing that on on one ecosystem you can move a lot faster than if you're trying to support a lot of different languages however it's a to the point point of if if you're kind of Target developers they may not need that level of kind of streamline you know thing I think that's kind of where I see the main Divergence is that we are unabashedly uh focus on this ecosystem of for building web apps got it um yeah you support a v forever yeah and and so I'm very curious to see just how it all shakes out because it's I think what they're doing is actually I mean I'm very curious to see what Microsoft does because if anyone is good at giving out VMS tying it to a codor and and putting AI in it it's sa he's got a clown he's got code they got code spaces they've they're in open AI now they've got anthropic in in uh co-pilot I mean I must imagine I must imagine that they're cooking stuff over there you know well we make sure to ask him yeah we have many friends for Microsoft listening to the Pod so just a WAP I don't know is there anything else bolt related I just have one personal question before we wrap the Pod maybe like just advice like now that you've been through this journey right advice to your former self oh okay um yeah at which point yeah advice yourself like thinking about there are many Founders out there with with a business where they're like they're they're working really hard it is interesting but it's not an AI business yeah and you kind of took the plunge to to invest in this and it worked out for you maybe a lot of people are like okay like you know this guy got lucky obviously there's a little bit of luck in everything but like how do you improve your chances like would you say go for it would you say everyone should go for it how would you advise someone who was in your shoes and thinking about you know maybe I should have a second product maybe I should take this this experiment or maybe it doesn't work out like what is what's the calculus here yeah we were deeply skeptical going I remember you the conversation you and I had you know I was like this I I think there's something here at that point we had built some amount but um I had waited a long time to give you said this was your moment well it was so I remember specifically though at the beginning of the conversation with Sean um he and I sat down at a coffee shop in in in SF and and so I was kind of giving him the pitch of like you know I think we have I think that I can't remember the exact phrase I said but it's it's it was obvious that Sean had heard a lot of people say this exact thing to him over the past year or two which is like hey man we've got an AI play like this is our thing plus AI equals this this could be crazy and Sean I you gave me this like skeptical look and and and I was like I really think so kind here's why right and um and I think I think that's it's actually I think it's that is a internally having being skeptical of uh just kind of going and jumping on hype trains is is good because it's like I think you you know your focus and your time and what you're putting you're waiting to is uh the most important thing when you're a Founder I think for us like we actually again like I had mentioned at the beginning of this you know we had tried bolt and didn't see the result and that was like a two week Sprint and we rolled it back this this isn't you know viable at this point but uh then you know once we once we saw real tangible results of you know some of the new stuff we like okay that that changes things and I think a lot of is is to is going and finding that out for yourself and then going in talking to the smartest people you know with more domain knowledge on that stuff than you have and going here's kind of what we found does this track so when Sean and I met and and and you know we he and I kind of he saw it we talked through it and he said this is your moment I specifically remember that because I I walked away from that and I was like holy [ __ ] this this is it like this you know like Sean's Sean's at the intersection of web and Ai and has like it you know has one of the best perspectives on this stuff of of anyone I know that put a huge you know wind in in our sales honestly of just like okay let's let's go and really let's go and double down here because um you know had conviction before but having someone who's in the space independently kind of verify meant a lot you know so makes me uncomfortable but thank you I mean it I mean it you know and I waited I waited until I was pretty darn sure it was not going to be a waste of time to put it in front you know cool well that's all I have U yeah and then on the personal side you had a baby in April you ran an Iron Man in October now it's November and he did Iron Man while launching ball like yeah exactly that's I I was trying to schedule a call for him and he was like nope I'm sorry I'm swimming it's like hey I'm on the swimming session and for those who don't know uh actually I did not I didn't not know the distance of an Iron Man yeah 13 hours your time with 12 12 120 12:15 12 12 hour give me my minute no no I it's it can it it completely depends on uh you know the chorus and just the the the person or whatever right and but yeah I mean it's it's 2.4 km Open Water Swim yeah 2.4 mil Open Water Swim 100 km 100 mile 100 km cycle I think I think it's 112 mile uh bike and then Marathon full yeah full 26.2 M Marathon yeah crazy it was why yeah and you were you were not like a super endurance athlete before right let's like make this clear yeah kind of a wild a wild thing so you know back when I we had our daughter um in April and at that time we were the future of the company was you know we we were figuring out what are we going to do here at that time it was it was just prior to bolt kind of getting kicked into you know the rebirth of it with the new models and stuff and so I I knew that it was going to be you know having having a child is you know if you talk to anyone that's done that you you don't have a lot of sleep it's it's you know there's a lot of you know to to to be a great parent is is a ton of work and then also being a startup CEO where there's a lot of uncertainty or whatever the way I've always found like when I have to go and um kind of knock it out of the park and all aspects of my life is is uh go and yeah just to make it all aspects of my life and so I was I I just one you woke up one day I was like all right I'm going to do an Iron Man this year and uh uh burned the ships bought the bought it cost a thousand bucks to do these didn't know that um and you know just started I never ran a marathon at that point and so I think it was like 45 or 60 days after that I ran a marathon my brother-in-law he's that was even more insane two weeks before the marathon I was like hey do you want to run a marathon in two weeks he's like sure and and just did it with me he not an endurance athlete either right but anyway so yeah so I I I was training I ended up getting a coach uh who was uh justo you're kind of online he's up in maren great guy was on the US Olympic team for triathlons and when I told him okay I'm I'm doing Iron Man California um in three months he was like are you insane you know like what are you you know you didn't ask for my opinion but like I just want you to know I don't think this is a good idea I I you know like you shouldn't do this Etc and I ended up doing it you know I ended up getting it done and so he was like okay like that's pretty what makes you what makes you ignore expert advice here like most same people would be would be like okay I mean you know what you're doing like I'll maybe wait a year I think and this is this is kind of the and being a Founder right it's it's all about like if you like I mentioned earlier it's like when we talk to people that worked on browser engines they're like you can't you can't build what you're talking about I think the job of a Founder is is to is to solicit that advice and and what my coach actually said he was right about certain things there are certain areas where I was under indexed on like I was not you know spending nearly enough time on my bike for example like after that I was on my bike 6 hours a day on the weekends that's a lot of time to spend in the saddle just like just kind of you know that was like you know for a couple months leading up to it he was right on on certain aspects of it and but I kind of had to look internally and go okay like what is he kind of missing about who I am and like what I kind of know I'm capable of at this point I mean it was a nailbiter I mean going into the thing I you know it's you get and this is the same thing with launching bolt it's like or or launching anything launch day race day you kind of go in you're like all right here we go go like we're we're going to find out we're going to find out you know how based in reality I was about all the decisions that led to this moment and so any going and doing the Iron Man in like six months most people spend uh you know the folks he train usually it's you know one to two years on this stuff before you do try and do a full you it's like going and kind of doing in that sort of time frame it's it's very similar the same sort of skill set of going and Building Products you have to really kind of look at the base reality and go make your own assessment on it right so cool great story to wrap thank you so much here thanks for your time thank you [Music] Back To Top