welcome to bankless where we explore the frontier of internet money and internet finance this is how to get started how to get better and how to front run the opportunity i'm ryan sean adams i'm here ~ Introduction Segment Removed ~ with david hoffman and we're here to help you become more bankless david we finally got him hayden adams on the podcast ladies and gentlemen we got him hayden adams the creator of unit swap we go through the entire history of unit swap starting when it was just a blog post from vitalik on reddit i think going into hayden getting laid off and being convinced by his good friend carl florsch that he's going to all of a sudden become an expert on you know ethereum building and defy and turns out that's exactly what happened and so hayden takes us through the story of you swap from inception to where we are today with unit swap v3 to where we are going tomorrow which is uniswap being the world's largest largest asset exchange platform in the world uh it is it's been a fantastic story and there's so many different uh detours and turns that we take because it's it's it's it's interesting every step of the way and there's so much value to be derived from this conversation because not only is it the story of uniswap but it's the story of ethereum at large as well because it's such an emblematic of what it means to build something on ethereum i had a fantastic time talking with hayden today yeah this is just i feel like this is going to be one of those legendary stories that the the world hasn't yet just discovered you know like like uh steve jobs and steve wozniak in the in their garage right in in um menlo park uh that that area and or like bill gates the story bill gates or like you know mark zuckerberg facebook all of these things now that says bad connotations these days but it's it's that important and it still hasn't escaped in mainstream this is one individual very first software development project able to disrupt the entire financial economy by building code on top of ethereum um no one believed that this thing would would work this was at a time when when ethereum was dead and lo and behold it just surpasses in the last six months surpassed the volume of coinbase and if you listen to hayden you come out of this episode incredibly bullish you come out of this episode uh believing that uniswap could one day surpass the the volume of traditional finance like s p 500 and nasdaq um such a compelling story such an ethereum-centric story so honored to be um one of the ones kind of talking about it early this is like an anthology it goes through the entire timeline of uniswap that's sort of the first half of the episode in the second half of the episode we get more into uniswap v3 and the details and boy are there a lot of details uh around uniswap v3 it's very clear that hayden and team have thought about this exhaustively we talk about the sushi vampire attacks we talk about the unit swap stimulus package the union swap airdrop as it was 4.5 billion in value to 500 different ethereum accounts like crazy stuff um we talked about his reasoning for licensing and core to this entire conversation was one through line david which was what are the values of a decentralized financial system what are bankless values and what does that mean what does it mean to instantiate that in code on ethereum what does it mean to instantiate that on the in the uniswap protocol um so really great episode definitely worth the wait uh and uh we're super excited to bring this to you guys to me the cool story about uniswap is this dance between the relationship of the values of ethereum and also providing financial tools to the ethereum community and the the greater world at large while also inspiring bottom-up community ownership there's so there's so much value to be derived here so let's go ahead and get right into the interview with hayden but first we'll talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible bankless is proud to be supported by unit swap uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on ethereum which is what ryan and i call a money robot no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy something brand new in the uni-swap ecosystem is the uniswap grants program is now accepting applications for grants we have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again dals have money and they are in need of labor if you think that you have something to contribute to the uni-swapped out apply for a grant to uni-swap just look at the size of the uniswap treasury it's almost 3 billion this mountain of capital is looking for labor do you have something of value to contribute to the uniswap dow no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply for a uni grant at unigrants.org and help steer uniswap in the direction that you think it should go that's exactly what we did to get unisoft to be a sponsor for bankless and you can do the same for your project thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless metamask is your go-to wallet for the bankless journey if you're going bankless you need metamask period browser and mobile get them both this is your tool to unlock the world of d5 here's my favorite part now you can swap tokens directly in metamask with a single swipe this has got to be the easiest way to trade ethereum tokens choose a token you own a token to exchange it with and get your quotes if you like what you see you hit swap that's it what makes swap so useful is what happens behind the scenes it compares dexes aggregators and market makers to find you the best price with the lowest network fees and the least slippage this means you can swap a wider range of tokens and swaps can even automatically split up your trade to give you access to better liquidity you don't even have to think about it try it out download metamask for desktop or mobile now at metamask.io and start swapping ~ Sponsored Segment Removed ~ all right bankless nation we are super excited to have our next guest hayden adams the legend the creator of uniswap guys this episode has been one year in the making we've been asking hayden on the podcast for 12 straight months now we have aggressively pestering aggressively festering on twitter we had mark cuban first you know and we were we're faced with a dilemma whether to have mark cuban or or hayden first we had mark cuban first but now we have the long awaited podcast with hayden adams hayden how are you doing i'm great really happy to be here uh really happy to be on the podcast and i'm definitely sorry that i've rugged you a few times i'm saying that i was gonna come on and then not and canceling and pushing it back and you know it just made it it just makes this all that much better because we we just like wanted it so much you know you're building the suspense and um you know i think the community's really excited to have you on so david i think we're going to do this podcast as kind of like a timeline of events so do you want to kick us off with the first milestone in the timeline and we'll run through it yeah absolutely hayden i believe the genesis of uniswap started with you getting laid off can you tell us about that part of the story and where things went after that yeah definitely um i mean to some extent it started a little bit before that uh i had a friend in college his name was carl um and he was super obsessed with ethereum uh incredibly passionate about it uh he would tell me to buy it back when it was you know a few cents um i i didn't really care that much about it at the time i wasn't that interested i don't think i was studying mechanical engineering and i sort of had a planned path for my life i think um and so after i graduated college i spent a uh sorry my square my chair is squeaky um yeah after i graduated from college i spent a year working as a mechanical engineer specifically doing computational fluid dynamics which is basically just stuff with heat flow and we were working with car designs uh but i don't think i liked it at all um i might have hated it i it just wasn't very interesting you know mechanical engineering is one of those fields where it sounds like it's very futuristic and it's actually mostly stuff uh from like newton and like you know hundreds of years ago um and so i don't think i was very passionate about it uh and you know fortunately i got laid off because i don't think that i would have left um and at the time you know this was in the summer of 2017 and so ethereum was finally starting to take off around then um and it basically ballooned from maybe one to two dollars to like 15 to 30. and so it was starting to get uh some excitement in the ethereum ecosystem and i got on a call with my friend carl who had been working at consensus and then he had recently moved from consensus uh to working with the ethereum foundation uh he was writing the proof-of-stake smart contract uh for the original proof-of-stake casper um and we basically got a call and he said you know congratulations this is the best thing that's ever happened to you uh you're going to become an ethereum developer well i don't really have a you know software development background um you know i had done maybe one or two coding classes as part of mechanical engineering but very very little um and so i felt like you know there's no way i could make this transition i'm too far behind too late in my career and you know what carl really impressed on me was that you know no one knew how to code smart contracts yet um and it was so early in the ethereum uh you know life cycle that you could become you know what he said to me specifically is you know in one year's time you're going to be a world expert on ethereum and i was like probably not but um you know i it was kind of a little you know there was something really exciting about ethereum you know the more we talked about it there was sort of this you know the idea of programs that can hold money um the idea of you know finance where no one controls it the idea of you know you can send money and no one can stop you and no one can kind of take your money there's something really interesting about it to me and so you know i decided to make the leap um i you know so i spent a few months basically just learning solidity um writing some initial smart contracts writing a token contract all that sort of thing and then carl pointed me to you know we i had another kind of call with carl where i was basically saying you know i i'm starting to get it but i don't feel like i'm making enough progress i don't really know what to do with it at this point and so i decided i wanted a project to learn on uh something that i could take a little bit further and carl pointed me to this blog post from vitalik on automated market making and that essentially outlined you know the the initial idea of uniswap which is you can you can make a smart contract that has this x times y equals k formula and it will allow you to trade between two assets so that's where it started really the the interesting thing about the story to me is that the moral of this story we're about to we're about to go through the creation of unit swap v1 the creation of uniform v2 the token unit swap v3 optimism but to me the moral of this story happened at the very beginning where you had this buddy carl who for those that don't know carl his energy and optimism is absolutely infectious uh and you were coming from you know the legacy world and you had skepticism as to your ability to build and perhaps didn't have that uh that optimism that carl had about you being able to create something on ethereum what can i really contribute i don't know how to code and carl's like no no no you're going to be an expert in one year's time and perhaps your your reaction was that how how is that even possible yet here we are today with the unit swap being the most success perhaps the most successful uh ethereum application how how it's an elegant beginning to this story how do you see that beginning of the story and how it kind of played out yeah i definitely think that it you know speaks volumes to what ethereum is and what the ethereum ecosystem is i definitely didn't do it alone and there was definitely so much along the way um but all of it kind of points to you know the power of ethereum and the power of decentralized finance which is really you know for one it was because it was a small community at the time it's still kind of a small community in some ways everyone was very welcoming and so everyone you spoke to was very passionate about it and was very welcoming and inviting and basically just wanted to bring more people in um right so carl wanted to bring more people in and so he kind of sucked me in to the you know into building on ethereum um but then there's kind of this other aspect of it which is sort of a more almost a technical aspect of it which is that you can build applications where you don't need to trust you know anyone and that's just a very important part of the story which is that it didn't what i did wouldn't really be possible in traditional finance because i didn't have a reputation to you know that would allow people to trust me with their money and what was nice about uniswap right is it was an application and anyone could you know read the code for themselves it was fairly simple um it was or rely on other people who had read the code uh that this was safe to use and people were willing to put their money in it and they didn't have to trust me you know they were trusting the code that i had written um and you know that is sort of what allowed it to grow so much and so fast uh and i think it's just such an amazing property of ethereum and then i think that you know beyond that just the the kind of permissionless nature uh where you know anyone can build on top of it where anyone can uh you know participate in it uh definitely was another aspect which is sort of fundamental to what ethereum is which which made it possible in the first place so you have been given this project from uh pointed to out by by your friend carl say hey there's this blog post from vitalik about amms this uh x times y equals k curve uh and then you start you just start tinkering in solidity and start building this thing out where does the story go from here yeah i think that what i was you know as i started tinkering with it at first it was really just i want to learn how to you know write smart contracts and i want to learn how to create web interfaces and so the very first version was just me you know writing some simple code uh learning kind of the basics of web web development um it was very much the way i viewed it was a learning experience for myself um definitely as it started to form once i had a initial proof of concept uh which was this i don't know if you've seen that version of the site there's a sort of pre-pre like early transit version of it the retro version um that once i sort of got to that point what i did is i started to compare it to other projects in the space at the time and the differences between them and you know something that basically the primary decentralized exchange at the time was etherdelta um and ether delta felt very different from uniswap uh you know uniswap had this aspect there was it was sort of like a very confusing user experience it was very like complex to use i don't have a very i actually before you know i didn't this mechanical engineering background i didn't have any finance background whatsoever so to me it almost felt a lot more intuitive for my own use and and so i started to kind of get a feel of this like ux implications and then the other thing that i started to get a feel of was and maybe this is maybe more important is the uh the underlying properties of decentralization and censorship resistance and permissionless um you know basically all existing decentralized exchange uh platforms that were kind of either in the works or um existed at that time didn't really have the same underlying properties of ethereum that i cared about right you know i cared you know the properties of ethereum that excited me were the fact that you didn't have to trust anyone the fact that it could never go down um the fact that it was permissionless but when you looked at things at the time like you know ether delta it didn't actually have those same properties and so i started to view it not necessarily as you know okay this is a way for me to learn but it was also you know what does it look like uh to build an application on top of ethereum that has the same properties as ethereum itself that everyone cares about um and yeah at what point in your story did you realize that this uni-swap thing might be as it could be as big as it is today like when did this go from a pet project for you just learning to to code to perhaps perhaps this is something that can change what ethereum is i think we need to yeah i think that we need to accelerate almost two years in this story um because you know everything i'm talking about was basically early like late 2017 um and i'd say that you know throughout 2018 basically you know my story was you know traveling around every ethereum event i could meeting as many people in the space as i could starting to build out uh uniswap into a more complete version you know i got this ethereum foundation grant was definitely a pivotal moment for it um where you know i now had some financial support for it that was definitely important at the time um and i also had almost a responsibility to build it where you know i people gave me money to build it now i was like okay i actually you know have to take this a little bit further um and so you know i basically resolved on getting a version to mainnet getting a version that felt production ready and i you know i set out to kind of accomplish all the tasks that were needed whether it was you know obtaining an audit hiring contractors to build an interface writing the white paper um and so but it's still all all along that time i didn't really know how it would be perceived it's definitely like a little bit just on that hayden for a minute like what can you tell us about that funding so like how much was it and where did it come from um i saw very little bit personally but you know there was definitely kind of a few ways that it got financed so the ethereum foundation grant uh you know it was sort of written out as a hundred thousand dollars technically it was uh fifty thousand dollars plus um a hundred and something each basically it was the cost of an audit and the audit ended up was denominated in each and so i just asked for the ether amount um by the time i received the payout the the ether had gone down something like you know 75 80 percent um much closer like 55 to 60 000 um but it did you know and i think that the other you know there was a few people who kind of helped me out with small personal grants along the way such as you know uh that guy pascal who was mentioned in the blog post and um i got a grant from balance at one point and i got a uh i think none of that money i didn't see a single penny from the grants uh personally um i basically was i had bought a little bit of eath in early 2017 and i basically just was selling all my youth and living off of it um and so i kind of basically sold all of my eth to to live while building uniswap um which was you know i guess it was the right i guess you know it ended up being the right the right uh gamble but uh you know yeah uh were you aware of the gamble you were making at the time did you think that oh this could perhaps come back and and really helped fund my life or what did you think you were doing i think it was more like i needed to you know pay rent and eat food and i wanted to keep building unit swap i'll say that the other you know there's financial support uh but there's kind of maybe the more important thing which was a community support and and and uh you know support from kind of other contributors um i definitely had you know an example would be khalil who's you know the the designer at uniswap and kind of has become much more known in the crypto industry for his design work um he was helping out on the project actually as early as i believe december 2017 um so he you know he i basically paid him a little bit but not very much as a contractor for early design work and early front-end work um i also had you know paid some other developers but in part they were contributing with their their time uh as well and you know people like carl and people like vitalik who gave me feedback and introductions in the space um definitely you know the sort of ethereum community who supported me and and you know inspired me to keep on building it uh was super instrumental to it and you know maybe even more valuable than any of the the financial support that i got was you know going to my first ethereum conference it was edcon and toronto and i met so many people there you know i met well i actually i met a few of them the day before but i met you know dan robinson i met andy millenius who was the cto at maker dao i met phil dyan i met all these people who kind of uh helped bring me into the space and you know were very uh generous with their time and their their advice um and all of that was was so incredibly important so i want to get kind of a preset on this this timeline of events we we've we've um moved through so far so 2017 summer of 2017 was when you got laid off right and and carl was sort of making the pitch um all this time are you getting plugged into the community and you're writing sort of the first prototypes of uniswap that happens somewhere in the 2018 or so yeah time yeah range yeah yeah and then the uniswap launch right so november 2nd 2018 was when uniswap v1 launched and i want folks to understand sort of the backdrop of this the backdrop hayden you were kind of alluding to is um we had these things called decentralized exchanges but to your point hayden they weren't totally decentralized they certainly weren't permissionless an operator had to sort of add the assets uh they weren't fully on chain so the order books off chain uh and here you are in 2018 the market's kind of dead right like the ethereum project has failed uh this is what i did not exist definitely was not a thing maker was just like sort of a little bit there but not fully there i don't even think they had um their single collateral die out at maybe they did it it was one month old okay so all very br brand new and what you're doing in that backdrop is you're bringing something called an automated market maker to the fold which is a totally new take on decentralized exchanges it's it's or on exchanges period it's not an order book type of of exchange and you're deploying this thing can you talk about sort of the the context of when you deployed it on november 2nd and sort of what you expected yeah i think that i didn't i didn't fully know what to expect uh i think what i knew at the time one was that vitalik was very smart and liked the idea um and that on its own was like a huge like okay you know if italia thinks it's a good idea i'm gonna i'm gonna assume it's a good idea or at least worth like trying out um and then i think that the other thing that i knew is i knew that i knew the benefits of it and i didn't i knew that there were downsides um in fact everyone i spoke to from the traditional financial world to extend that i spoke to people from the traditional financial world uh did not think it would work um even you know someone that they shocked yeah what did they say to you um well they basically said that you know hilariously some of the same things people are saying about you know v3 today which is active market makers are gonna you know beat up passive market makers people who just deposit liquidity are gonna you know slowly have their value drained over time um basically that it was too slow to update prices um by that i mean you know it updates prices in real time but it but if someone you know actively wants to change their price then they're competing against arbitragers and uh it maybe takes too long to do that um so yeah there was all sorts of uh reasons that it was never going to work um you know it was too capital and efficient um what about hidden even in the defy community what were people saying because as i remember at the time the sort of the um the like idea was that um decentralized exchanges were of the flavor of um 0x and of ether delta and this idea of an automated market maker was even foreign within d5 it was formed within d5 i will say that i i did you know and if i didn't exist yet as we uh as i said but you know within ethereum um i think that it did get a lot of support from certain people i think that there was like a strong signal from vitalik uh when he he sort of supported it very early on that a lot of people picked up on there was also plenty of people who said it wouldn't work um every step of the way for sure um but you know i also got a huge amount of support from people who were excited by it um you know examples would be even like a mean uh on day one so you know day one it had about thirty thousand dollars of liquidity uh which was put in by people we kind of knew and so i was terrified it would be lost through a potential hack you know i did everything i could to avoid that but i was still kind of terrified that there would be real money at stake um and then the second day uh i was somebody introduced me to me and he messaged me he's like i'm thinking about putting a million dollars in today and i was like i'm trying to sleep at night and i would prefer you don't um but what i what i did know is that you know it had these sort of decentralization properties that other things did not and i basically wanted to figure out what is the value of those decentralization properties relative to maybe the potential weaknesses of the system right maybe it isn't as capital efficient as an order book uh but it definitely is more decentralized in an order book it's definitely you know easier to create a new market it's definitely easy to create liquidity definitely lowers the barrier of entry and i think that for me that was enough um just as a starting place um and then definitely you know i was overwhelmed with the response uh the the positive response that i received where you know despite it being like an insane bear market where everything was going down i think that the one thing that wasn't going down was unislav uh unispot traction uh during during 2018. um and seeing it kind of just you know exponentially grow in usage and traction was when i started to you know think that maybe there was something more there this part in the story to me is a through line of the core deep ethereum community members who really understood what was going on here versus perhaps the you know the legacy financial people that you that you talked about that only saw problems i can definitely attest to the fact that i started paying attention to unit swap because amin kept on talking so highly of it and i personally really as a respected mean and he he was the person that really did a good job you know through twitter explaining the merits of this whole thing uh and i i do would think that amin ultimately did end up seeding the uh the spank uh eth uh lp and then also becoming uh very handsomely rewarded uh for that behavior ultimately when the the the uni token came down the line uh and so there was that there was that liquidity but that was just for um spank and eth and i think the the biggest uh most legitimizing event i think in the early days of uniswap was uh maker dao or the the people behind the maker team decided to move their mkr liquidity away from oasis decks into uniswap were you a part of that story at all so what's so awesome about the story from my perspective is how little involvement i had in actually growing the liquidity or or bringing it to the platform it was really just like a natural occurrence um where you know i think it resonated with people at the maker you know i had friends at maker but i actually had no idea who the major mk or liquidity providers were in the early days of unit swap um i didn't know any of the the early big liquidity providers really um and it just kind of happened uh you know early user early kind of members of maker dow saw meredith and and put some of their mkr and some of their in the pools and you know it it was a validating experience especially you know early on when when it started being you know becoming the number one market for mkr and it was you know maybe it was worlds behind you know things like coinbase or even ether delta um but it was you know the number one market for mkr for for mkr is the number one market for dye it will not die yet but um yeah that was definitely a very validating thing and by the way just to speak to your previous point on the community and the bear market there was something really special you know people who were around and building in the bear market were people who like truly believed um and i think it was like a really exciting time because of that um you know everyone who was there was there because they like shared the values of ethereum not they weren't there to make money because everyone who was there had lost a huge amount of money um and so yeah it was definitely like a you know an awesome time and people like amin were were like really instrumental i i totally agree like the sudden the the tourists moved out and the settlers were there the builders remained and i you know before we get too much further in the story hey i want to ask this question because you keep going back to sort of almost core values of uniswap trustlessness permissionlessness censorship resistant and i'm curious to hear i mean these are these are um values that i think are inherent in the ethereum platform it sounds like you you understood these very well at a at a fundamental level um and you talked about the uni-swap experiment being worth trying just because they exemplified those values i i'm wondering if that's something from like your personal life like you just highly identify with these values or if this is more an engineering mindset of well all of these other exchanges decentralized exchanges are trying this spot on the trade-off spectrum but what about this spot i wonder if this has product market fit yeah i think that it's a little bit of both you know i think that i'm personally very interested i think i'm interested from an engineering perspective um i think it's really what drew me into ethereum and you know helped me kind of you know carl sort of advised me to do it but the thing that kind of helped me make the leap was that there was something so interesting and novel about you know i think that i definitely you know recognized problems within the existing financial world or maybe just power structures in general that existed um where you know obviously like there was a huge amount you know a huge amount of wealth concentration um you know there was kind of a huge amount of gatekeeping you know uh very few parties could participate in fina finance and you know the idea of sort of a financial system that removed you know unnecessary middlemen financial system that uh you know helped more people participate and you know basically help you know redistribute more wealth to more people um was you know something that i definitely believed in and still believe in very much and it has been kind of always been a driver um and it was originally my driver to getting into ethereum but you know like you said i don't view the units uniforms values as different from ethereum's values at all i think that they're very similar and every step of the way in working on uniswap i've kind of taken my leads from from ethereum itself from vitalik from kind of uh the decentralized finance movement the broad the broader movement um yeah it's definitely going to be a through line of this podcast and something i want to sit on for a while towards the end here but let's keep going down this uni-swap story so we've got uh uniswap v1 built on ethereum we've got some early community members now there's a uniswap community you know amin is in this community now and some anonymous mkr liquidity providers are in the unit swap community community uniform community is growing um but with towards the uh with unit swap v1 what were the obvious uh things that needed to be addressed that could be addressed what were the shortcomings that you had your head on that you wanted to tackle yeah and by the way just to add on that before like you know some other really amazing things that started to happen around that time was you know people building projects on top of ethereum on top of uniswap um you know probably the earliest example would be would be conlan uh who built you know units what eventually became uniform.info he built this sort of analytics site um it was just me i didn't have the kind of capacity for building an analytics site for unisof and someone else came and built that um and as people started to spin up you know sites dedicated to kind of building on top of unit swap that was like such a huge um push forward and and such an exciting moment um but yeah that definitely you know i saw that as unswap was growing and you know i definitely saw that there was sort of demand for uniswop that there was something there that was worth pursuing further um and you know i decided i was going to pursue it further and so you know that that's kind of where the seedbound happened um there was so many like i guess what i was 100 sure is that there's no way that i built a perfect system by myself um with no you know with no finance or development developer background um and so i knew that there were better versions of unisoft that could be created and i knew that i couldn't create them i i i knew i didn't want to and shouldn't create them alone um and that more people could join in this and so that's really you know what led me to i didn't know what the long-term kind of structure of uniform would look like i didn't really know what the long-term kind of community would look like um but i knew that it should be taken further and at that time sort of the the thing that made the most logical sense was basically to raise money so this brings us to like april april or so 2019 and you're talking about a uh a seed round which was led by paradigms small amounts at the time like a million dollars in the seed rounds 1.8 million okay okay so 1.8 or so and before that you didn't really have a team uh at all working on this hayden was it mainly you solo and this sort of allowed you to build out the team think about a team yeah from from fall 2017 until spring 2019 um i was the only person who was working on it full-time wow i had you know definitely you know you've probably read that sort of history of unesco blog post which shows that there were sort of an army of people along the way who contributed and helped and encouraged and pushed it forward with uh with me but definitely until spring 2019 uh i was the only person who woke up every day saying you know what what what do we do next for unit swap and how do i kind of you know improve on it and what can we do uh with it um and yeah so you know definitely the the highest priority with the seed round was to you know have a few more people uh working full-time on the project um so this was we're still in the bear market blues we're still in the era of um d5 just maybe being realized but it's it's still only only the settlers have have realized that all of the tourists are are gone from the industry but these investments are being made and you felt it seemed like at that time that okay there's something here like amms maybe are a thing this uniswap thing has product market fit still had fairly small it was fairly small in terms of liquidity at that time what how much liquidity were we talking in 2019 i can check right now spring 2019 okay i had like about eight million dollars in it okay so the volume was david's laughing but like that was impressive back then it was like a whole new smart contract thing and had accrued eight million in liquidity um it was doing about you know a million dollars a day in trading as well awesome so yeah around that time were you thinking about um the seeds for what a v2 would look like and yeah basically one that you hope to solve yeah i mean the first thing that i knew needed to happen was that uh people needed to not lose money when they traded on uniswap due to bad ux uh issues um and so they were like you know i think that by far the first priority um was you know uh so the first hire was the first two hires were basically noah um who's our engineering lead um and khalil who's our design lead and basically we set about you know making it so that when people went to the united states interface it it became something that you know didn't feel like a hackathon project um the uni the original use of interface was created in three weeks by a single contractor that i hired just just for context um and so we the the very first priority was get the unisop interface to a point where people really can trust it with their money um but then beyond that um there was sort of this this broader question of okay there was definitely you know uniform v2 was top of mind and what would a next version of the protocol look like what are there are there some obvious wins um and and obvious improvements to make um and i think that the most obvious improvements were one just overall you know architectural improvements like code based quality improvements there were a few minor kind of bugs in the v1 code i mean it still works and runs today pretty well but for example never worked with tether because of this sort of token bug and it couldn't handle you know tokens had certain implementation details um it had this sort of it uh so there was definitely this like general code quality architectural improvement um and then the sort of uh two other things that we were focusing on there was one just arbitrary erc20 or c20 pairs uh which hilariously never ended up being that important um i mean or they're still like i mean they're important they've they're they're a decent chunk of unispot but probably still only something like ten percent uh of unswapped today uh is non-east pairs um and i think do you have any comments on why do you think that is uh yes um i think in part you know we were this was when we were working on v2 it was definitely before like curve existed um and we definitely knew that there were going to be eventual ways to make stable coins more efficient but we did expect because curve hadn't been out yet we did expect this to at least be a big improvement for stable coin stable coin pairs to some extent uh and we did expect that to be better for stable coins um so that was kind of part of it uh and and that ended up not happening in part because you know more efficient stable coin focused amms came out um around the same time as v2 um or i think somewhere between when it was announced and when it was launched uh was when curve came out um and then i think that the other point is that uh people really love each pairs um people in ethereum like denominating an eth a lot of you know your c20 tokens and d5 tokens tend to track kind of a similar market movements with ethan and bitcoin i guess the whole market kind of moves together so i think people really like these pairs generally um and so those are still you know by far the most popular although we'll see if that state is the same in unison v3 um i think that the kind of final uh you know big or big change with the uniform v2 was definitely the introduction of oracles which i think again i think that they've been wildly successful in some rights but again i don't know if in some ways and we did we did a uh um uh clubhouse talk the other day with dan robinson and his hot take was at unispot v2 kind of failed at everything that it attempted to do while still like wildly succeeding um which is basically oracle's never actually took off that much i mean they are now one of like uh kind of second to chain link or kind of probably the most used oracle system on ethereum and so they definitely have sort of led to this like oligo stable coin boom and there's definitely a few projects like reflexer and compound that are now using it and so i think the units above v2 oracles are really great but at the same time also we never showed them the love that they necessarily needed to kind of gain this broader adoption um and maybe that's a kind of important point i can make about what we viewed you swap v2 at the time we were creating it and then what it ended up being to us as a team um i think that when we were working on units above v2 originally we basically viewed it as almost like the multi-collateral dye to to make her a single like just to the maker like the kind of equivalent of multicollateral diet to single collateral diet of universal v1 um and i think that where what we realized um very close to the launch of v2 is that actually it was just single collateral dia v2 and uh that we were going to need to work on this v3 version and that that was ultimately like the version that we had to build an ecosystem on top of um you know we basically by the time we had launched unispot v2 we were actually already starting to work on v3 and there were even there was probably one or two very brief conversations where we were like is it worth launching v2 um this v3 design is so much better but what we realized is how much longer it would take to get there um we knew it was going to be just like a massive development hall and so we basically decided launch v2 um it's just a much more scalable infrastructure just better infrastructure much more scalable to build kind of to for unit swap over this next year but what we didn't do is then spend you know what we originally planned to do when we were building v2 is then start building up like participating and building out the ecosystem around it as a team um you know kind of along with the community and instead what happened is we immediately spent all of our time working on futures about v3 sort of full-time and the community sort of built up the ecosystem around municipal v2 on its own um and so yeah that's kind of a you know something that maybe people don't quite realize about how v2 evolved i will say that despite all that i've kind of skipped pretty far through the timeline despite all that uniform vt was an enormous success in terms of uh growth and traction where you know it grew from doing a million dollars a day in trading to you know a billion dollars a day in trading um i i think that there was sort of some really pivotal moments you know i think you know september uh was it september 20 20 uh of this year where you swap did more trading volume than coinbase for not not on a day not for an hour not for a week but for a full month uh the trading volume was higher and so definitely there's there was this explosion uh of usage of v2 but at the same time from how we were like viewing like the role of the protocol in the long term i think that we just uh we're already fully on the v3 train i want to make sure folks capture the significance of that so you launched uniswap in november of 2018 right and then two years later a couple months earlier because you said september 2020 uh it's doing more volume than coinbase is doing that's what you just said i i skipped a lot yeah i guess we skipped a whole bunch to get to the from he's stepping back for a minute um does that surprise you is this like like why did this happen like how did this happen and why did this happen from a 20 000 foot view because that surprises me and i'm honestly surprised hayden that this story isn't widely known or isn't widely told outside of defined crypto circles yeah definitely if you asked me in 2017 it would be shocking if you asked me in 2018 it would be shocking if you asked me in 2019 it would be shocking if you asked me in like mid-way through 2020 it would be shocking um so i would say that up until it happened if you would you know up until sort of maybe a few months before it happened if you asked me when or if unispot was gonna pass coinbase on like a monthly trading volume um i would probably you know over time definitely as i got more usage and traction we started to see some of the the real value of automated market making and i'm gonna get into that um but uh and so i started to have some long-term you know ammon maximalism thoughts where like hey this can actually be a real thing this might be how all trading is done in the future but that future didn't feel a few months off it felt a few years off still i think or like two years off maybe um it didn't feel like something that was ever going to happen uh in 2020 uh i can say even even as as late as like early 2020 you know i it seemed it seemed to like two years off um but i think what we saw i think what happened basically is that unit swap opened up a world of permissionless innovation um that just moved so fast and and because of how permissionless the innovation is on top of in indeed and on top of unit swap it was able to move just so much faster than anyone could have anticipated um you know the ability for anyone to kind of create a liquidity pool um without needing professional market makers the ability to you know not not just not need professional marketers you don't even need to have a technical background you we had an interface for it you simply deposit some tokens and you simply just like type your numbers in a field and you you know you you hit create and in a created liquidity that existed forever for that asset and you know projects that wanted to that you know people the projects that that needed exchange as a subcomponent of what they were doing no longer needed to build an exchange you know maker dao very early on built their own exchange they built oasis um and ultimately no they didn't need that because you know unisoft became the kind of this sort of primary market for for those those assets and so i think that just how easy it was to create liquidity um and not just you know just self like it's almost like user generated content versus uh sort of uh you know editorial content like you know think about like the difference of how fast new york times articles can come out versus how fast youtube videos can come out um it's like that but with finance and money and um and so the fact that you know anyone can create something and anyone can use it um just lets it grow so much faster than than uh you know sort of permissioned financial models um and so i think that we saw this kind of explosion in d5 summer um you know i think that the big thing that came out of that was like yield farming um and what you notice about yield farming and sort of defy summer is that you know the projects that are best positioned to benefit from that are projects that work for like this long tail of assets uh and use cases and i think that uniswap was just like very well positioned to benefit from that um because it works so well for the long tail uh because you know uh what even like you know projects like maker dow and compound which are decentralized and they're defy but they kind of rely on like pooled risk and because of that they sort of tend to only work for like a subset of assets um versus uniswap where risk is basically split out on a per token basis or a per-pair basis and so you know anyone can kind of come in and join and there's no there's like no real pooled risk basically any liquidity provider can take on whatever risk they want on an individual basis and so you know people who are you know providing liquidity on some new obscure asset aren't exposed to some other obscure asset and so i think that that's sort of part of what happened um is just this this explosion of activity and use cases um that that was just so exciting and i think it brought a huge amount of people into the space and uniform was just like right there as the infrastructure that was needed to support it and during 2018 and 2019 there was a very uh select small contracted group of people that really understood these things maker dao came online in january of 2018 uh and uniswap really came into its it's its shoes really in in early 2019 when all this early liquidity came and that's when kind of collectively as a community we all started to to realize the these things and and hayden i i think i can i think this is right is then when you didn't you didn't really know that what what you just said about the long tail of assets and enabling you know um you know tools for anyone uh that perhaps wasn't exactly something that you uh realize in the the early the earliest days of unit swap and it only came about when people actually started to started to use it and as a community we all kind of realized this collectively together as people started to use these things i remember um using uniswap to provide liquidity for this uh pov token that i just minted for funsies uh and just just handed it out to my friends and and some people i some people just wanted to buy it and so they just went to uni-swap and they could buy this token that i had just minted that's absolutely crazy and another story that stuck with me was uh when i with my time at realty where we had tokenized real estate we wanted to make real estate liquid and all of a sudden we had this this market that we could just put our asset into our relatively esoteric niche asset that had no alternative secondary market we were able to tap into the power of uniswap without permission and this really the instantiation of unison the existence of uniswap along with the other two kind of like king d5 protocols in 2018 and 2019 maker down compound that's kind of where some of this early defy narrative really came out of like we didn't we wouldn't have been able to talk about ethereum in the way that we talk about ethereum without uniswap uh how do how do you um perceive unit swaps like contributions to the conversation of ethereum at large yeah i definitely think that kind of i i as i had sort of mentioned earlier like you know i was early on i saw uniswap as this example project of of you know a way to build an application on ethereum that kind of mimicked its underlying properties and i think that we just kind of ran with that and so you know i think that we've always i've always sort of seen uniswap as an example of you know at least trying to be an example of doing it like the right way if that makes sense uh doing d5 like the right way which is like you know doing it kind of responsibly doing it um uh in a way where where it's kind of holds on to the values that matter um and so yeah it's always been something that's been like incredibly important to us since very early on um and i definitely agree with with what you said there which is like you know early peop people like yourself even you know who started to get more accustomed to it and understand it more and who also shared those values really just like contributed so much to its growth and it's in its traction and you know as more people started to understand it and kind of spread the word of it um you know it was sort of like mutually beneficial to the space where like you know units will have benefited from it but then you know maybe ethereum benefit from it as well hey guys i hope you're enjoying the interview so far with hayden we are about to get into the defy summer part of uniswops timeline uh and we asked about sushi swap and what it was like to be on the uniswap team during the whole sushi swap saga and then we of course get into after that uniswap v3 and spend a ton of time talking about what is really all what is the innovation behind uniswap v3 we talk about concentrated liquidity we talk about the oracles we talk about how unispot v3 is flexible enough to allow the market to shape the curve of the amm and what that means and then we finish off this interview with a conversation with ethereum values and how unit swap is an extension of those values and what hayden hopes the long-term legacy for both uniswap and ethereum are around to the world around us such a fantastic interview but first before we go any further we have to take a moment 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series a round with some of the same investors and some new ones and then this event kind of happens on the end of uh d5 summer so heading into uh into d5 fall maybe which is the sushi swap vampire attack so this is where a competitive automated market maker takes uniswap v2 code forks it calls it sushi swap juices it with yield and starts to acquire some liquidity tell us pick up the story from there yeah i think that you know maybe just to preface that yeah we kind of knew there were actually other projects at the time season came out there were actually other projects that had been working on forking unisof in the background and i think that they almost didn't end up launching because of sushi and because of the attraction it got so just kind of like a funny note is that we definitely were very aware that knew there was going to be forks of unispot um and and i think that you know we kind of viewed forks generally as fair play um because you know open open to our software license um what i think uh however i think specifically with sushi and not even sushi but specifically chef nomi the the guy on twitter who is promoting it i think that i was suspicious of him and i very early on i had some tweets where i basically questioned his intentions um right i i guess the way that nomi was tweeting about uniswap seemed opportunistic to me it seemed you know it was very much like hostile and aggressive um you know oh uniswap is controlled by the evil vcs and like it was very much like um you know uni it was kind of uniform should be owned by the community um which i agreed with but what was kind of interesting is that the community that naomi was talking about was not actually the uniswap community it was you know the people who are yield farming sushi tokens which is which is a little bit different um i think that something that was really exciting about the sushi saga was it showed how much demand there was for increased in community engagement um with with uniswap uh or with you know amm protocols generally and so i think that it was definitely you know really exciting as well um there's a lot of interesting things happening uh at the time and there was you know obviously a huge amount of traction um ultimately it was like a huge net liquidity increase to swap before and after the uh before and after kind of the the migration occurred um but i think that something that i was always very cognizant of at the time and what sort of i called how i viewed it was basically you know when naomi was tweeting about oh you know this is this is the more community oriented version what what was kind of first in mind was that you know who is the unit swap community because to me it didn't feel like you know sam bankman freed and and kyle simani were the unit swap community it it felt like the uniswap community was the people who had contributed and used it over the years right the liquidity providers you know i mean like all these people those were that was the uniform community and so a more community oriented version of unispot would be one that kind of brought those people into the process and so i think that you know for a long time definitely we had thought about a token and had been considering it um but definitely there was a sort of an acceleration of that from our perspective seeing how much demand there was for the community version of unispot and so that is definitely kind of one of the things that led into the launch of unswap governance we so do you would you mean to say that you guys weren't actually thinking about a token as much as you were after the sushi swap event i think that there was definitely something that like uh i mean definitely tokens in general right the idea of a token had been around forever right when unifog first came out v1 like you know there was a thought of a token right because it's a project on ethereum and and tokens exist on ethereum so i've always sort of thought about it and i think that you know even if you it was things that i had considered you know even if you see some of the kind of uh you know how we kind of talked about in the in the v2 announcement we started starting to talk about community it's like it's things that i had considered but i think that um you know the sushi swap saga definitely revealed how much the community wanted it um and i think that that was like a you know so it definitely made us much more interested in pursuing it as as a viable thing much much sooner um and so definitely it uh to some extent like yeah there was there was no final decision on whether or not there would be a token until you know after sushi had started um and so we we definitely moved quite fast on the on the creation of um you know the the governance contracts and uh yeah we it was a busy few weeks for sure we definitely want to get into the conversation of the token obviously because that was such a monumental event in d5 history but i want to hang on sushi swap just a little bit longer if we were a fly on the uh uniswap offices if there were offices because by now we're into covet times uh what would we have heard from the conversations for about the unit swap team about uh the sushi swap events i i think it's kind of what i said early on like it's kind of what i just said in the past he sent like it's basically you know uh general suspicion around nomi specifically uh uh definitely um some excitement around the community's engagement and interest in participating and the sort of kind of traction that was happening around it um uh so yeah i think that that was kind of the two main the main things that we were kind of thinking about in general um yeah and for what it's worth the the suspicion around nomi was definitely not unjustified um you know he did like you know uh do the do the the rugball thing um and then of course there's you know there's sort of what happened then and then where it is now which is obviously um a little bit different for sure for for those how do you see that sorry david i just wanted to chime in for those who are not aware of the chef know me history this is a pseudo-anonymous character who who started uh sushi swap fork the original code and then rug pulled that's crypto language for stole uh some of the funds eventually gave gave some of it back right how that story concluded and the community was done and hayden how would you describe the relationship between unit swap and sushi swap today uh these things in my opinion fill different niches how do you guys how how do you define the different roles provided by these different projects and what do you think that's going to be like growing along sushi swap moving into the future yeah i think hilariously like i think if you spend all day on crypto twitter uh you might be like shocked to know that we don't really uh like we think about other competitors probably just as much if if not more than sushi um and they're not like you know like we don't prop we probably don't think about them nearly as much as as a lot of people would think um i definitely think that you know what we tend to focus most on you know i think that the the people we view as maybe the strongest competitors are more things like finance and and things like coinbase um to be honest and i think you know um one thing in terms of sushi specifically we are very curious what they're going to do next um from our perspective unispot v3 is just like such a massive improvement that you know something that looks like unispot v2 can't really compete with it in the long run um from my perspective and so i i'm very curious how they respond to that um or or if they you know from from what i've seen so far there's been a few things that they've been doing one that they've been kind of branching out away from exchange in amm uh with their sort of forays into lending then the other thing that they seem to be doing pretty uh is kind of branching out into ethereum killers and and basically bringing unispot v2 to you know bsc and solana and phantom and these sort of other kind of uh evm chains so that seems to be what they're focused on right now but but i guess we'll see different focus from uniswap i i take by the way you said that we'll get into that when we uh when we talk more about v3 but just one of the last milestones on our timeline here is september 16th 2020 that was the date of the uni-swap airdrop and i think everyone who had been active in d5 remembers this date because if you're using d5 one of the first things you do on d5 like as as soon as you take custody of your keys you get off a centralized exchange you're doing something with uniswap that's the first app everyone uses and the beautiful thing was if you did anything with unit swap if your private key from from metamask made any exchange on uniswap you got a token like oprah winfrey style right you get it including a few including if you the only thing you did on unispot was make a transaction that failed exactly so um we love our there was like something like a thousand accounts that had only made failed transactions so tell us about the stats here so you're even supporting the failed transactors uh in uniswap but this was a very wide distribution to what is essentially the the fledgling defy community all of the the settlers that we talked about very few of the tourists were using unit swap but all of the settlers were kind of using unit swap how big was this airdrop and can you talk about the design um and like your thought process going into that yeah i mean in terms of how big it was i believe it was a 150 million tokens which are currently valued at about 30. so about what current value is somewhere in the realm of of 4.5 billion um is how big the uh the the uni uh retroactive distribution was um in terms of at the time that it occurred it was more in the realm of 450 million dollars i think that they were you know valued at about 30 and across how many accounts was this hayden and it was about i think it was over 500 000 accounts um so something that that we were so excited about uh going into the the the launch of useful governance was you know unisov had something that no one else had at that time and it was like a long history of a real user of of a large amount of real users um you know no other project had hundreds of thousands of users um and so you know definitely it was super exciting when we were kind of designing it they were sort of you know how do we wait against like swappers versus versus liquidity providers um and early on i think we were very like uh you know kind of like liquidity provision oriented oh they're the people who took on the most risk but at the same time we we kept kind of coming back to like we really want this to be like owned by the community and there's so many more people who participated in swapping they're kind of allocating a significant amount to the swappers like there was such a few like so much fewer lps and even though they got like a kind of less a smaller portion of the distribution individually they were like very very very well rewarded and so kind of allocating a huge amount just to evenly spread across all accounts that i'd ever touched units felt was was really exciting um and it definitely served you know this so some of the stories that came out of it were were really incredible uh to me you know people were kind of you know some examples of really awesome stories where like someone reached out about a uh a class of students in rural turkey where they had all kind of their teacher had got them all to like try making a trade on uniswap and suddenly they all had you know more than a year like more than their full tuitions worth of worth of tokens and uh or are there people in like the philippines who are like playing axe infinity and and they received you know two-year salary uh worth of tokens um so definitely there was a lot of really like cool stories that came out of it um or even like smaller ones like people who like like oh i bought my engagement ring or you know i bought a ps5 like definitely um a lot of really cool stories that came out of it and and then the other kind of cool part is that you know it brought a lot more people in and engaged them and i think on the first day or the second day i think uni was maybe one of the had the most unique account holders of any token aside from maybe one other on ethereum so it's definitely a really cool uh exciting event so let's zoom out really quick because i want to back pedal into the conversation of the shared values and ethos that ethereum brings and hayden at the start of this podcast you talked about the different ways that ethereum and deepak can redistribute wealth and that's hopefully that is a through line of not just early ethereum but all of ethereum into the future and so as uh somebody who built this application that eventually had a token which is then collectively now worth uh over four billion dollars of distributed funds how does it feel to have created something that was able to put four billion dollars into over a hundred thousand uh individual people's uh hands like pat yourself on the back like how does that feel i mean definitely so much of that value was built by like the ethereum community and the community people around it i think it definitely is very inspiring to see like how much has been built on and around units while by the community um and the community of not just like unispot like the whole ethereum community just you know so like there's quite literally hundreds of applications building on top of unit swap we we finally started tracking our integrations and you know somewhere in the world of 300 plus maybe more um different applications that are building on top of uniswap um and so yeah it's definitely incredible um to see all the kind of excitement and and uh and and interactions and and yeah it's it's it's mind-blowing how how uh how fast things can move um in in defy for sure so the frequent uh metaphor that people use to try and explain what the unit swap airdrop is to people that are unfamiliar with defy is that uh it's it's like if you were riding for uber or driving for uber and then uber would just drop you some equity or you know if you're the user of facebook you would just get facebook equity for you for using the application uh and this has been a great through line a great narrative boost to ethereum at large my question to you is do you think that this event uh will actually result in the long-term perception shift of humans at large and how we deal with equity with the applications or companies or whatevers that we use like do you actually think that you have shifted the overton window i i'm not sure so i think that sort of how we view it is more through the route like lens of governance um and community kind of ownership and community uh building um and and how to how that can best be done in sort of a decentralized manner um uh you know how how protocols are are kind of like you know how do people kind of coordinate with protocols um and and i do think that you know union swap has the chance to be very uh impactful on that front um one way to think about like what you know government you know uniform governance can do you know the better way to think about is like what can't you swap coverages do and and then you can imagine it can do literally anything else um like what universal governance can't do is you know steal all the funds uh from uni swap protocol right uh because you know the smart contracts are mutable they're they're kind of non-custodial um so so you know you the unit swap kind of protocol is truly sort of permissionless and decentralized in this way where you know or sorry to truly like trustless in this really meaningful way and it was always very important to preserve that um and so when you think about like what what role does governance have i think that the role the governance has shouldn't be to be a custody provider right and it's not right and so the role is more like well what what can't be done entirely through on change smart contracts um well that's kind of governance roles you know every anything that can be automated in smart contracts should be automated in smart contracts and then what can't be automated in smart contracts is sort of this like coordination uh and and kind of incentivization and and uh kind of community growth thing like that that's the thing that sort of there's sort of this coordination um that is uh that they can't just be kind of automated right like humans building things can't just be kind of you know built into a smart contract in or it can be but you kind of have to have like some method of coordinating people um and i think that that's generally a um a thing that is maybe sometimes lost uh in ethereum right now is like the importance of like humans and social movements and and uh you know people with values building things um like there's sort of this sometimes this tendency towards like code is law and like you know nothing should ever change and everything has to be completely automated forever but there is always there's always going to be a human element because we're all human beings and like uh that's kind of the role of unlike a very philosophical level like the role of kind of governance is to sort of um try to coordinate the human element of of a decentralized ecosystem absolutely i think people even forget even with um base protocols like ethereum there is this layer zero there is this this social layer to the system at large so here we are in the story we've gone through kind of the the legacy of v2 uniswap v2 and i feel like this is sort of almost the uh the the time in the episode where we get to talk about the thing that we we teed up the entire time because up to this point the way you've talked about v2 has been and even unit swap v1 has been that it's sort of an unfinished project right like you had bigger wilder ambitions um almost like unit swap v1 and v2 were sort of a beta version right sort of a just a a smaller instantiation of what the vision could be now enter v3 and i know this is something that um you've had to keep tight lips on for a while or i guess the uniswap team has chosen this approach to keep us all shrouded in secret but last week you announced it to the world you announced the launch date which is may 5th which we're super excited about you also launch some of the key details that would be contained in this thing called v3 and this is really more if v1 was sort of a or v2 is like a point release upgrade this is a whole new version of uniswap it's almost like a whole new vision and i'm not sure that i entirely understand all of the elements of it hayden to be honest so why don't you start by telling us in your own words what is cool about uniswap v3 yeah so maybe a starting place is like what is the uh goal of venus swap v3 um and i think that the goal of unit swap v3 you know there's sort of been a lot of kind of like automated market making has been almost disproportionately successful um to the sort of capabilities that they provide and that comes out of the fact that they sort of offer these new innovative things that traditional you know exchange models can't offer right this sort of ability to incentivize liquidity the ability for more people to participate the kind of ease of providing liquidity all these kind of things um are what make it possible to what make it success possible despite the kind of early reasons people said it would fail which is you know issues around flexibility issues around capital efficiency issues around like you know yeah just just like efficiency of the system in general right like the the kind of amount of capital that gets wasted the sort of um uh difficulties with with expressing opinions um or like units of v2 kind of forces you to take very specific bets where people are always like oh it's a short straddle oh it's like you're betting on me and reversion people have all these things that they say that you're doing when you're providing equity on uni swap v2 and the point is that it generally is forcing tons of people to share the same strategy and the problem with all amms before unit swap v3 uh and you know there's kind of various ones that have started to add more flexibility but the problem generally is that there's always a cost to expressing your opinions uh imposed on the entire system and and what i mean by that is that you know um or there's always first off like as a general point there's no single price curve right you know amn's general right they create this sort of price curve uh that automatically sets prices um uh and it sort of automatically controls the rate at which they update um and there's all these sort of and there's several different projects with several you know there's uniswap which has this very neutral curve of evenly distributed liquidity between zero and infinity uh then there's projects like curve which um sort of warp the shape of the curve such that it the price updates slower when the price is closer to the price of one and then it kind of so like the curve kind of flattens out and then like spikes towards your infinity and then there's like you know projects like bouncer which also kind of let you modify it a bit um but the the general problem right is that there's no one curve on a per-pair basis you know if you if you imagine a giving trading pair there's no one curve that can like optimally sir there's no one curve that can optimally serve all trading pairs and then beyond that even within a single trading pair there's no one curve that can optimally serve all liquidity providers um liquidity providers have individual preferences first off pairs have individual market properties different sort of volatilities all of that um but beyond that individual liquidity providers have different expectations for what the market properties for that pair will be and so ultimately you know if you're if you expect an asset to move up if you're very confident in asset will move up in value versus if you're very confident in asset will move down in value versus if you're very confident that the asset will move flat how you would want to provide liquidity is very very different um and you could imagine like a very naive approach to kind of solving this expressiveness would be basically just through external aggregation you could that's kind of like the balance approach which is like okay people can provide liquidity in a bunch of different ways or you could almost imagine like there's dex aggregators that are aggregating your curve and you swap and balance and you kind of have this sort of different um you know aggregation across it but the problem there is that you have this very hefty aggregation cost where very frequently it's not worth the cost of checking it because you know ethereum's like a resource constrained environment it's very frequently not worth the cost of checking two places because that doubles the network fee that double or sometimes it more than doubles it um and so what unispot v3 really aims to solve is bringing the expressiveness that's needed in liquidity provision um without while without kind of introducing this in this aggregation cost per preference that's expressed um if that makes sense so unicorn v3 kind of has this very efficient way of batching every single person's preferences into a way that you can kind of aggregate across an infinite range amount of them with uh while still supporting like efficient trading um yeah maybe i should pause for a second to kind of yeah i can keep going but there's yeah so let me let me try and spit that back at you and see see if you if you like the my summary um to me the infinite malleability of uniswap v3 goes from what unit swap v2 is which is here's your price curve here attention to trading pairs ether die here's your price curve it's x times y equals k and then with unit swap v3 the infinite malleability of being able to generate more parameters around where liquidity providers want to or how to provide liquidity all of a sudden it's the instead of unit swap dictating what the price curve is it's the market discovering what the price curve should be or could be that is optimal for those specific trading pairs so all of a sudden because of the programmability of the expressiveness of unit swap v3 what you said is it gives the option to express opinions about the future outcomes of assets what that does is that that generates a unique price curve for every single trading pair and that price curve is going to be determined by the market participants who think that they have the optimal price curve and naturally the market participants that are correct are the ones that are ultimately going to dictate what that price curve looks down the line how does that how does that definition land with you very close i'd say that the only very very close i think the only thing that i would add is that the market participants who are correct are probably the ones who are going to do the best which is maybe the the only kind of like there's no necessarily right way the whole point is that there's no single right way to provide liquidity right and yes the market might conform around an opinion that's ultimately incorrect um and and you know maybe there would have been a better distribution but you know there's no way to perfectly know that and so it more just like anyone who wants to provide liquidity can now you know provide liquidity in a way that better expresses their opinions if you think you know ethan is never going below a thousand dollars again um not investment advice but if you think that you will want to provide liquidity in a very different way from if you think either's never going to belt but 3000 above 3000 right and so like there's like different ways that you'll want to provide liquidity if you have different preferences um and i think that there's definitely a lot of kind of right now there's a lot of sort of early confusion about about what it will look like and how people will be able to kind of understand it enough to express their preferences but i think that that's sort of just kind of follows the kind of how youtube has always been which is that like it takes you a while to understand it but then eventually it's going to be understandable and then more people are going to be able to participate um the same like the same way that like no one understood v1 when it launched and then you know as you were kind of talking about d5 summer there was all these people who understood it and were able to engage it it might be a little bit of a similar process where it takes some time for people to understand how to express their preferences um but then they will be able to express those preferences um maybe one other kind of lens to just talk through this quickly it's like capital efficiency like price risk um there's sort of these two fundamental things that people have always talked about in the amm space um you know i invented this word um permanent loss some regrets at times but what would you have rather called it uh i mean some people have said it should be called like you know unrealized loss or you know maybe let me just define what it is and then talk a little bit about it in the context of slippage you know what impermanent loss is is basically the price risk you take on as a liquidity provider like inherent providing liquidity one way to think about what you're doing when you're providing the quickview is you're essentially saying i'm willing to sell tokens on either side of the market price right in v2 at least you're always willing to sell like an equal amount on either side of the market price what that means is basically if a token is going up in value you're sort of selling that token and raising the price a little bit every year like every like unit of that token you sell you raise the price of the next one by a small amount and so you're basically like selling tokens as they're rising in value um or similarly the token is following value you're kind of buying those tokens at the with the other ads are following in value and so this kind of concept of impermanent loss is essentially the idea that if you buy a token at a lower price and then it rises in value it would have been better than not or sorry if you sell a token at a lower price and then it rises in value value it actually would have been better to not sell it wait for it to rise in value and then sell it at a higher value um or or just hold it in your wallet because it's now worth more um the flip side though uh and the reason that we i kind of had this term impermanent is it kind of gets at this idea of well what if the price falls back down to where it started um if the price returns to where it started uh it actually wasn't a bad idea to to um to sell it at a lower price because it eventually returned to that price and you sort of like if if the price returns back to where you started you just end up back where you started and so it wasn't a bad idea to buy on the or to sell on the way up in the first place um and you know universal v2 always had this sort of trade-off between this you know if you enter at one moment and exit at another moment at that moment the kind of amount the the difference in prices sort of that that impermanent loss or unrealized loss becomes realized and at that moment what you want is you want to have collected enough fees to kind of offset the the downsides for selling some tokens at a sub-optimal price um but if you think of it but it's worth noting that ams are like a two-sided marketplace and there's another participant in the system and that's the traders and people kind of for some reason people always forget about traders in amms and only think about it through the lens of liquidity providers if you think about it from the trader's perspective what does a trader want a trader wants to buy tokens at a good price um and if there's some sort of like if there's a current market price for that token they want to be able to buy as many tokens as close to that market price as possible um and so if you think about it from that perspective you know if someone the more tokens that a liquidity provider is willing to sell closer to the market price the better rates traders are getting and so that's like the other side of the the the the sort of marketplace which is like you know the less price risk a liquidity provider is going to take on the less permanent right uh loss liquidity providers taking a willing to take on the worst rates traders get because there's if they're willing to sell less tokens closer to the market price that means the person trading is able to buy less close to the market price and so it's just like worth noting that you know how much price you're willing to take on directly impacts how much trading volume you can support and how good the prices can be and so there there's just this like we call it like an iron law trade-off it's just a trade-off matrix of how much am i willing to sell close to the market price the more you are the better rates the more price risk the further away the less price risk the the worse the rates and you know there's no right answer right that's once again why we have to create this expressiveness that's why you have to make it possible for people to choose for themselves how much prices they're willing to take on uh versus how much trading volume they want to support so hayden how does this tie into capital efficiency then when you give everyone those choices yeah i mean i mean they sound like really easy uh things to kind of say here which is you know uh i i wish i had written down some numbers to give like examples but you know you could imagine like very early on when we were working on you and swap v3 something that we realized and i don't remember the price of each is probably like in the 200 range but we realized something about you know you have say like 10 million dollars in the in the east side pool what we realized is about like a quarter of the the the liquidity in those contracts existed for buying eth below the price of ten dollars you know beneath it was like two hundred and like a quarter existed for like buying ether selling eth above five thousand um so you have all this like inventory in the contracts that are like sitting on these sort of obscure edges of the smart contracts just waiting for prices that might never be reached um and so you know when you think about people focus a lot on impermanent loss which is like oh i sold some tokens and i didn't get the optimal rate but they're forgetting the kind of other maybe more important component of it which is what we're calling the inventory risk which is basically you know unit swap v2 made you hold 50 50 value and two tokens and essentially what you do when you put uh let's say you put in like you know a thousand dollars essentially you're putting in five hundred dollars uh on each to die you're putting in five hundred dollars for buying eth uh at if you put five hundred dollars of dye to buy each at every single price between the market price and zero and it's evenly distributed and then you put in 500 of each to sell at every single price between the market price and infinity and so you have like a huge amount of capital that's just completely wasted on the fringes because if you never expect those prices to be reached any capital that goes there is just a complete waste um and you know this kind of effect is massively compounded for for things like stablecoin stablecoin pairs where you know you expect the vast majority of trading to happen and maybe a one percent price movement maybe less even um and so the fact that you know something like you know 99.9 of capital like exists for prices that might never like rarely will ever be reached it's just completely like it's just like a massive waste and um i guess i want to tie it quickly back to the inventory risk um which i was mentioning which is you know some people provide liquidity on ether die and maybe have a very high degree of confidence the east will go up in the future in the near future some people provide liquidity and have a very high degree of confidence each will go down some people forgot provide the question have a very high degree confidence eth will be flat um and it's now and and because of that like with uniform v3 there's now three three different ways you might want to kind of provide your liquidity um as i just mentioned you know 50 of the capital in v2 basically is die liquidity buying it below the market price but what if you don't expect to go down then why are you if you're expecting east to go up then why are you holding die in a smart contract to buy each at low prices it's just wasted capital and it's and it's exposure to an asset that you don't want to hold on the flip side if you think that each is going to go down then all the east that you're holding for selling you know at a price of ten thousand dollars why are you holding east to sell ten thousand dollars when you think easy is going to go down that's like nonsense um so in unison v3 you could essentially imagine um uh there's two different ways to think about it um one way to think about it is you could take sort of if you sort of constrain the price range in which you expect trading most uh trading activity and and the price to kind of stay within for a given period of time you can almost imagine all capital that's wasted that's kind of sitting outside of that can basically be removed and so you know you might be able to provide liquidity with you know you'll basically put in 25 or 10 of the value that you would have to put into v2 to create the exact same exposure support the exact same amount of trading that you would uh in v2 with you know maybe 10 of the capital 20 of the capital whatever it is um the other way to think about it is maybe you have a very high degree of confidence uh that you know the price will stay around the market price and be a sideways market for a long time then you can actually maybe rather than putting uh you know less underlying capital crit to create the same effect you could put the same amount of underlying capital to create a much greater magnified effect and so you know rather than putting in you know a hundred dollars instead of a thousand dollars for the same effect you could put in a thousand dollars and create ten times the effect um and so being able to create you know a massive amount of liquidity and when we talk about you know how amplified this can be um an example would be if you were to provide liquidity only between say 99.9 cents and a dollar and 0.1 cent which you can do on like a stable coin stable coin pair with one million dollars in unit swap v free you can create the exact same amount of liquidity that you'd and take on the same price risk but still that you would need uh two billion dollars in you to swap v2 um to create and so you know you can basically put a million dollars in and as long as it's trading between that price range the sort of effect is completely identical in terms of price risk um or sort of completely identical in terms of permanent loss and fees earned and liquidity created as two billion dollars in like a diverse dc uh v2 pair but all the remaining you know uh whatever like you know the the massive there's like a huge amount of capital that you now can kind of allocate to other things um anyway yeah so so hayden i am my mental imagery for this and one we've used before is like you ever see that like clips from the old tv show of robot wars where you got like these people are constructing these mechanical robots and you put them in like a uh an octagon and they face off and they fight um my like imagery model for this is uh this is what's happening with automated market makers and with exchanges right you have these different protocols and they're all trying to win at this whole liquidity war and so you've got like uniswap over here with its version of its curve and then you've got curve over here and you've got balancer you've got all of the others and they're all kind of competing for this liquidity in this in this robot wars game what i think you've done and maybe this is this is how i understand what you're saying earlier you said earlier in our conversation that unit swap v1 and v2 is almost similar to like single collateral dye right and the new uniswap v3 that's multi-collateral dye um what i think you meant there is with uniswap v3 you can essentially be any curve you're not just coming into the robot war with like a buzzsaw and attacking another robot who's got like a blowtorch you've now got like all the weapons you got the buzzsaw you got the blowtorch you got the you know thing that's gonna destroy the the the top of the other robot you've got all of the weapons at your disposal and the market then chooses what the most efficient efficient weapons are going to be so you don't even have to plan and aggregate all of these strategies together you don't have to have individuals come and say this is the curve it should be a human being who does that you just basically get the market makers to decide right because the market makers will pick the optimal weapons and optimal strategies to optimize your uniswap robot weird analogy but for some reason that works for me how does that land i i dig the i think the analogy i i pretty much agree with you there it's you know it basically just opens up this whole range of you know almost existing projects could almost be build themselves on top of unison like if existing projects are kind of like specific you know market making strategies then those could be expressed through unit swap e3 and so yeah i would be like so i think that we're gonna start to see you know a movement from projects that are kind of trying to build their own way of market making to projects that are basically using unisoft v3 as a way of expressing market making strategies and getting people to adopt them who kind of share common opinions um and so definitely yeah it goes from this sort of uh you know single use case or this sort of single curve to this just anyone can create any curve within it um and in a way that's like you know a huge amount of props to the the the engineers who built it um that's actually quite efficient um on ethereum which which is hard to kind of overstate how much work it was to get there like we had the designs you know pretty well flushed out maybe by like you know nine months ago 10 months ago but but making that kind of an efficient system making that you know yeah making that efficient was just a massive massive task um but it but it's here now and i think that we've seen like a lot of interest from the community you know something that we you know something that may be very different uh from how uniswap might be now versus how it was before is before it was like iterating to the version of the protocol to build the ecosystem on and now it's like it's not to say that there hasn't been an ecosystem that's been building but it's like now there's this like real moment where the community can come in and kind of build all like there's so much that needs to get built on v3 because of how much more expressive it is because it's more complex um uh but ultimately like in the long run it's like the most flexible um most kind of long-term uh oriented amm design that exists right it's kind of we're trying to be forward-looking with the design and like what will be needed you know three years four years from now and and so we're not expecting like some massive overhaul like oh we can like we don't have another like 1000x improvement on amm up our sleeve like the point from here is it's up to the community to kind of build out you know what market making and liquidity provision looks like on top of this and you know yeah one one thing i think that the community needs to to build out dave is going to get to this question is um like uh liquidity for some of these positions because they're they're nfts they've moved from erc20s to nfts we'll get to that in a minute um but before we do hayden just like one i guess downstream effect of sort of unlimited curves is that rather than everyone is sharing the same dumb strategy as an lp might today this is really going to professionalize liquidity providers in that you have to be armed with the best strategy if you're actually going to make money at this liquidity game um what what are the implications or downstream effects of that some people have said well you know one negative effect is possibly this uh no longer democratizes providing uh liquidity to the protocol because the experts in the pros and the quant like they'll do all of the all of the work here any any thoughts on that yeah i have so many thoughts on this i wrote some notes about it i'm gonna try to get through everything because there's like a lot to unpack here um and i think that you know just like some high level points would be that like first off like you know if you're democratizing by forcing people to provide liquidity with sub-optimal strategies that's like not a long-term winning method of like like that's not an efficient marketplace that's not something that will win in the long run is oh we're going to force everyone to use inefficient strategies um because that's the only fair thing we can do like that that doesn't make sense and it doesn't work um i will say though like despite the kind of recent narratives that have come out of v3 i think a lot of that comes out of you know complexity and then how early on it is um sort of similar to how i mentioned you know v1 was received um in the very long run and and i can kind of back out from some of this stuff but in the very long run i'm incredibly incredibly excited and optimistic and bullish for passive liquidity provision um and you know broadening this the the the user base of who provides liquidity um i think that you know if you look at like the sort of this uh analogy that we like to talk about um on by we i mean probably a lot of it's me and dan robinson but you know other other yeah and kind of other people on the team is like you know if you can kind of compare like passive investing strategies to active investing strategies in the history of though of them which is like you know if if you if you went back you know 50 years and you said oh in the long run like active money managers are are going to get out competed by people by like you know retail clubs who invest a small amount in everything you'd be you'd think that they were crazy but what you saw with index funds is that in the long run you know uh very few active money managers like out compete these sort of like you know kind of broad indexes that that you know most people have their money parked in um where everyone kind of investing a little bit in everything somehow is like for the vast majority of wealth it's like how how investing works um and i think that we have some like very long-term views on on this happening with liquidity provision um which is that like you know rather than you know you're sort of like over time like complexity and market making often comes from sort of especially for like very volatile assets um and very sort of like very volatile like like the most popular kind of like short tail of assets especially volatile assets that's where like it becomes very difficult for passive market makers to compete for very low volatility assets like stable coins and and and uh you know or in nutritional world you can imagine like fiat like you euro to usd that that sort of thing like th there the the passive strategies are going to be just like simple enough that i think passable outcompete active by having like lower margins um to participating um and and you know what we really expect to see over the long run you know i kind of talked about you know swapping like a forward-looking protocol over the long run we kind of anticipate crypto becoming less volatile right if it's successful it will realize its value right right now it's all this potential that we see but over time it will realize its value and a lot of things will become a lot less volatile we're not expecting these like 30 single day movements um on like the biggest assets in the world like if ethereum's the biggest asset in the world in the future we're not expecting it to move 30 in a day right like so it's worth noting that these things will become less volatile over time and as they become less volatile uh passive dominance becomes a lot more feasible and possible and likely um i think that there's like kind of a few other points which is you know as i mentioned like active a uh lps kind of do best on volatile and like very popular assets and that's because you know active lps right they have high overhead there's sort of a cost to kind of uh adding on new strategies and they don't want to take ris and it's not worth basically them participating in the sort of long tail of markets and to kind of go back to that sort of user generated content youtube youtube type analogy you know there's no way uniswap has had 35 000 pairs deployed to unspot v2 and like how like just to like like how many trading pairs do you know professional market makers are they actually going to basically want to hold inventory in and provide liquidity on and so there might always be this like room for you know active lps to come in and there might always be an area where they do dominate which is like sort of the subset of assets where it's very profitable for them the subset of assets that are still very volatile and hard to do optimal strategies but it's even it it's also worth noting that that's not automatically a bad thing um if passive if active lps are coming in and offering better prices um like yeah if active lps are coming in and offering better prices on more risky assets that means traders are getting better rates on more risky assets and so you know the fact that like active lps can kind of come in and better serve traders uh in more volatile markets like i don't know if that should be viewed as a purely bad thing i think it's viewed as a bad thing in part because there's sort of this fear that there won't be a place for passive liquidity provision but i guess what i'm trying to say here is that like on low volatility markets which we're expecting to be more dominant over time and crypto as well as on the long tail passives can dominate on all of that and i expect that to be far greater value than the sort of subset of volatile but very popular assets um and we'll see and and and the fact that active comes in there i don't think should be seen as a purely bad thing i have a few more things to say i know i've been talking about this one for a long time as mentioned i took notes uh on this one so hayden let's let's zoom out a little bit and and talk about some specifics so with uniswap vt v3 we have this uh much maximally expressive amm curve versus unit swap v1 and v2 which was a fixed locked rigid price curve and with all with all you know engineering there's trade-offs right so now that we've unlocked expressivity and uniqueness in strategies for lping and uniswap what that does is that makes the lp positions for these uh uniform lps non-fungible right one strategy is not the same as another strategy so no longer do we have the erc 20 lp tokens which have historically been extremely awesome as collateral inside of applications because of how they are fungible but now they are fractured into nfts and each one is different which means that we've kind of lost this ability to use that these nfts as homogeneous collateral in d5 but we've also lost the ability for lazy liquidity providing which is one of the things that was really touted as one of uniswap's v1s and v2's best features it's like well it democratizes access to lping but kind of what the through line here is what we're saying is that it's only democratizing access to lping because it's actually really inefficient and it just forces everyone into this really inefficient strategy and so moving forward into the future i i see a world where these market makers are competing with various strategies and these strategies are instantiated in the nft strategies and rather than being individuals competing to generate the right strategy and therefore the most optimal nft lp position perhaps this is actually better served by other protocols on ethereum perhaps something like a urine vault or other like and we've seen a set protocol do a robo-trading and other social trading where people will compete on their strategies uh how do you do you see this the demand and there's immense demand for lazy l ping right just here's my capital generate yield generate as much yield as possible do you see the application layer of ethereum coming to facilitate this need of a re recombining uh fractured liquidity and nfts and also providing uh lazy liquidity uh solutions yeah and so absolutely um and just to like step you know to back up a second so well maybe don't need to back up that far first off something that always gave us a huge amount of comfort building units above v3 uh when it came to this topic is that usb v2 is a subset of unit swap v3 you can take the unispot but you can make the unisport piece v2 strategy in v3 very easily and then you can very easily make that fungible if you want um it's worth noting that of course then you are competing with more active people who are concentrating their liquidity and maybe earning higher returns closer to the market price uh but it's also worth noting that unispot v2 lps were always eventually going to compete with more act with more efficient liquidity provision um and to be honest i would rather it will still be better to take the v2 strategy in v3 than to keep your liquidity in v2 because once v3 starts offering better prices um because it has sort of more concentrated liquidity um there it will all you know it might not be worth the aggregation cost of trading across v2 and v3 simultaneously versus if you take the v2 strategy in v3 you're actually kind of getting a free aggregation with all the trading through v3 and so like you were always going to be competing with v3 if you're staying you're still going to be competing with v3 if you stay in v2 but in a way where the aggregation has additional cost to aggregating you so v3 is offering better prices already you're getting no volume instead of um you know some percentage of volume uh while taking on the same sort of price risk um either way um so there's sort of just like this sub note of like i've kind of seen various people talk about how oh maybe we'll stay in v2 but but really you know as v3 is a two is a subset of e3 there's almost no reason to ever do that um uh in general though you know as you mentioned uh there's just no way right to kind of treat all liquidity as identical when not all liquidity is doing the same thing um so there is no way to preserve like fungibility across all liquidity in a pool um some interesting things though however is you do still have a measure of who is providing liquidity where their liquidity exists whether or not it's currently in range and so one thing that you know uh fungible liquidity is used for that maybe people are worried might not be possible is something like liquidity mining uh where you're like kind of evenly paying out you know uh some new token to existing lps on a pair um sort of pro rata proportional to their contribution what's interesting to note is that it is entirely possible to create an nft position manager where someone can deposit an nft and basically uh the way that liquidity is tracked we have enough sort of data to create a liquidity mining system where you can back out how much liquidity like you know how much any individual equity provider provide liquidity and like over a period of time and for like how long like uh you can basically back out whether or not someone's liquidity was in range um so you could essentially do liquidity mining across all lps even if they have non-fungible positions um in a sort of fair uh equal way um what but i think that what gets sort of uh maybe another sort of aspect so the liquidity mining thing is already kind of possible um and doesn't really need to be rethought or made fungible to do it that way um but i think that the other things that david's talking about which is like uh you know using liquidity as collateral um or even just uh maybe there's two things one is using liquidity flatter and the other thing is just basically just um you know no thought liquidity provision how do i provide liquidity and not think at all about what i'm doing um there's sort of a few things one there's a huge amount of room for teams to come in and we've already seen an outpouring of interest from various teams across the space to come in and design these strategies of kind of different expressive ways to provide liquidity and you know those include urine but there's also sort of a whole range of other projects that are that are thinking about it um and uh there's some notes which are one one note is basically you know no thought liquidity provision might be more suited towards less volatile pairs and so to some extent you know it's possible that some of these more risky pairs will see like less people doing sort of no thought liquidity provision um but at the same time you know it's possible that people are there are people who are down to think about it and other people just want to you know trust someone else to think about it for them or trust a series of people to think about for them and that's where you have this kind of you know vault style ux where it's definitely possible to have sophisticated priorities managing liquidity um and managing strat like sort of long-term strategies um and you know other people just adopting them um and so i think that we see like a huge like a a very large um amount of room for that um one way we're thinking about the ux of v3 uh you know we're kind of doing interface work on it right now um we have this kind of initial interface which is basically just fully expressive which basically gives you you know full access to every feature in v3 um and that's kind of like the starting place that you build everything else on which is like it needs to be possible to to you know provide liquidity within a bounded range for a given feed here you know all that stuff um and then uh you know the next step is basically um okay well what if people kind of want to sort of maybe some people want to manage it themselves but sort of want to have like sort of preset types of understand like i'm more bullish on this token i'm i'm more at risk-averse to that token it's possible you don't need necessarily a vault ux to kind of express that sort of opinion of i think if you think is going to go up over the next year you can tweak your sort of you know we're think talking about them we're kind of considering them almost like templates but almost designed like pre-built strategies which aren't managed on chain or automated but instead you basically like preset sort of how you provide the quality maybe you update it once a year or once every three months it kind of depends on like the time horizon you're thinking on um and it sort of expresses your opinions a little bit better uh and then the the sort of final step is these sort of more managed active ones which are kind of continuously keeping more liquidity closer to the market price maybe earning higher fees taking on a higher risk for sure um and so there's kind of a world for all these different things and uh you know we want to kind of contribute to that uh but we also think that there's like so much room you know all the the whole world of like oh we're going to build these competing amms i think that that whole world should now be like oh we should build competing amm strategies but just we don't need to build the amm we can just build the strategies um so yeah i think that you know i'm incredibly excited for for what's going to be built on top of it and you know how the community will come together to kind of solve these problems hey now i really want to quickly touch this subject before we we move on to uh the future of uniswap but uh there are three fee tiers three specific fee tiers in union swap v3 why just three specific ones and not a spectrum we we ran the whole gamut on this one we we explored every possible option um maybe to just like make sure everyone like people listening understand why one or the other and what this sort of trade-off space is um while we have gotten to the point where we you know well unicorn v3 solves this problem of i want to sell more tokens closer to this price to that price what it doesn't solve and and sort of still like pro rata splits out like you know it still kind of lets you kind of earn fees per rather proportional to the amount you're of liquidity you're contributing in a given range as opposed to you know just underlying capital um but you still you can't disproportionately reward some lps over others all lp still there still needs to be like a common shared fee relative to the amount of risk you're taking on and what that fee should be kind of similar to like you know the the sort of fundamental problem like there's no necessarily there's no single right answer to it um right it's basically based on on the on the sort of risk tolerance it's based on the sort of uh you know volatility of the asset um on the flip side you know something that's so incredible about um v3 is it solves as i kind of mentioned earlier it solves this like aggregation problem where people can take on unique strategies and they're all perfectly aggregated together so you know the balancer v1 approach was essentially we're going to you know i'll let anyone deploy a pair with any fee but our concern about that approach is essentially that it leads to too much liquidity fragmentation the sort of having a fee level that if there's an aggregation cost to having a fee level at you know 0.3 and also at 0.32 and also at 0.35 like there's sort of this inefficiency from that this aggregation and efficiency so what we really wanted is to encourage liquidity to kind of um congregate at sort of distinct levels where the aggregation cost outweighs the kind of um sort of marginal difference between sort of mine like being somewhere in the middle like so you know we basically set it to we set three initial fee tiers kind of designed for you know the point three percent of unit swap v2 i think has worked far better than people could have possibly imagined um you know that was one of the biggest things people said uniform would never work is because you know it only had 0.3 feet here but what you see is it's currently doing a billion dollars of trading has 5 billion liquidity and it actually works pretty nicely for a huge amount of assets and so the way we're thinking about it is like we want liquidity to kind of congregate at specific levels that makes most sense uh on a per-pair basis and so the point zero five percent fee tier is like this catch-all like like-kind assets we're basically expecting all of them to go in there point three percent is kind of this like you know swap v2 like cashman like generic like and you know um then this one percent is maybe for the sort of more niche use cases super high risk super sort of short term like things that are only around for a short amount of time so you need more fees there's sort of this like higher risk fee tier or higher volatility it's possible we need more in the long term and this is something that actually uniform governance will be able to add on additional fee tiers but what we don't want like you know we could have added say a 0.2 feet here but what we but our sort of current guess is that like the kind of inefficiency of having a 0.2 and a 0.3 um that of aggregating across that will outweigh the the the the benefits of having this sort of slightly more expressiveness um and so that's kind of where the the features kind of come into play is it's sort of this um this general trade-off space so before we leave v3 we got to talk about oracles and i i was curious you referenced oracle's in the context of of v2 and you were saying how you know dan robinson you guys were talking about how they kind of work but they're not optimized but but to me i was always wondering if oracle's in uniswap were almost like a like a byproduct like a public good right the unispot protocol itself provides liquidity it provides you know trading and oracles are just kind of a byproduct or an afterthought a public good for the ecosystem is that how you view them and how are oracles changing in v3 so maybe there's like really high level point that i don't see talked about nearly enough is that you know the sort of current thought on a hat like like the kind of current approach to oracle's um i don't know if i should say projects by name i might you know but the kind of way that they sort of like the way that a lot of people think about oracle is basically bringing off chain data on chain um and when it comes to the price of decentralized like when it comes to like centralized assets that makes 100 sense when it comes to bridging real world assets and centralized things to the decentralized world that makes sense but if we create a world where 99.9 of all trading happens on chain on decentralized platforms then why do we need these sort of bridge things that bridge data from a centralized world to a decentralized one when the training itself the trading activity actually already happens on chain and so for assets that have their trading happen on chain you know there's no reason for people to be like bridging that data or interpreting like you you basically can just directly check the data yourself and so and in doing so you're not adding on any additional trust assumptions um there's definitely like various like you know uh what is the cost of attacking this considerations but you're not adding in these sort of new outside like dynamics to it um you can basically create some self-contained fully unchained sort of or there are oracles where you don't need to really think about you know these sort of uh yeah um kind of who's reporting the prices or if there's sort of some like you know mechanism around that it's more like oh we the smart contracts can just natively check the prices um and what prices they were trying to get on chain um and in a world where uniform is a primary market for an asset there's no real reason to be bridging data from from finance or whatever um so wait so i might have forgot there was there's what was your question about my question at the lead off was whether uniswap views oracles as a public good or is it fundamental to the prodigal protocol right right right right so i think that i've used it as a fundamental to like sort of fundamental part of being of of any sort of you know trading protocol or any sort of exchange is providing price discovery um and having that be useful uh externally right like the way that you know sort of oracle aggregation products work is you know they're taking prices from off chain exchanges they're putting them on chain essentially or you know and so part of providing you know providing trading is also providing price discovery and so i think that yeah it is basically this like public good for the rest of the community but in a way that really benefits unispoi as well because it enables all these things to be built up around it and so we do view oracles as incredibly important to uniswap um because you know if it enables more things to be built on it uh more decentralized more trustless things to be built on it that sort of drives more value back to the network ultimately in in the long run um so it's kind of like a network effects thing it's kind of like a in aiding the community and building more products you can even think about like all these algo stable coins they all use unit swap two offs because they're sort of not all of them that's probably but most vast majority of them kind of came out of being able to have on chain price it's definitely on chain oracle that is censorship resistant and trustless it's definitely like a core primitive that d5 needs to run on top of but what's different about the oracles in v3 versus v2 yeah the basically the difference about oracle's in v2 v3 versus v2 is that they're massively easier to use and to integrate and they expose a lot more data at any given moment um i think that this was actually i listened to your kind of breakdown against v3 and i think that this is maybe the one area you guys got a little bit wrong was like no that's generous because we felt like we got more than one wrong doing okay um but basically you know we kind of came up with this in v2 this model where you sort of basically have this stored price accumulator where you check the value at one moment and if you check at some other moment in the future you can get like a perfect average across that period of time um and that's sort of the starting point for unit swap v3 usborne v3 has that as well and so you can already this you could check one moment you can check a year later you could check two years later and get a perfect one year or two your average you could also check 10 minutes later get a perfect 10-minute average um however there was this kind of constraint with v2 which is that you need to check at the exact moment that you need to average across and so if you want a one-hour average in unit swap v2 you have to check at one moment at the start of that that hour not just anyhow you have to start the check check at the start of the hour to get the checkpoint you have to check again at the end of that hour and you average across that um units above v3 oracles basically stores this kind of like array of historical data points um how we did that while decreasing the net gas cost to traders was is is sort of the magic of it and what made it possible but you know now it basically stores up to you know nine days of historical historical data where you don't need as long like as long as you're checking a average within the last nine days you don't need to be online at the exact moment you know you don't need to have a previous checkpoint which is very expensive by the way to check a point you checkpoint and you can check it again you average it require like multiple transactions you have to store that data here you can check at one moment and you could say what is the average over the last hour without having a prior data point or you could say you know what was an average starting you know if it's on tuesday you could say what was the average from sunday at 1 pm to sunday at 3 p.m and you can get that on chain in that moment without any prior data in a very gas efficient manner and so it basically just opens up this world of much higher sophistication uh much easier to build much easier to integrate kind of oracle-based projects on ethereum and also very much in align with the increased expressivity that we are finding in v3 and i expect the uh the the infrastructure around you know v uh you know swap v3 lping to really get adopted quickly and perhaps maybe these oracles are a little bit further down the line in adoption but like you said ultimately uh we are going to live in a bankless world and we won't need external price references to understand the values of our assets because we'll just be able to get them from from unit swap the last uh the last thing about unit swap e3 that i want to touch on is uh the software license yeah uh can you explain the rationale behind the software license hayden yeah definitely i think that you know one kind of uh starting point is basically that you know our team is very like we're massive believers in in open source software um we're huge fans of it i mean we built you know everything that we've built up to up to this date has been sort of basically under gpl right the reason that sort of all these kind of folks exist is because of how kind of community we've we've been to open source software um i think that something else that we're very committed to um is like the uniswap community and to the ethereum community um and that i think you know one kind of observation is that i don't we're not fully convinced that kind of the sort of early days of the internet views on free open source software like how that kind of evolved fully like anticipated how decentralized finance like the world of decentralized finance that we exist into today today and i think that like you know some of what was possible is possible now wasn't possible then and some of how value is built now is not how value is built then and so i think that that's like a very kind of important framing for this uh which is basically you know in the long run we we think that the world should exist on sort of you know open source rails uh open source infrastructure and you know the the license of unisov v3 is essentially a time delayed you know gpl uh license so in you know in two years or sooner um it will be gpl right there's no way for for anyone to increase it past two years um part of it was that we wanted you know the unifop community which is kind of ultimately sort of responsible for the union swap protocol moving forward to have a say in this process does unisport protocol want binance forking v3 day one uh and pouring all their money into that fork like i'm not convinced that that that's what's desired by the uniform community and so you know we kind of gave the the you know governance has this ability to accelerate the license if it wants or to provide exemptions if it wants through these sort of on-chain governance votes um and ultimately it will be gpl but i think that you know giving the community time to kind of digest v3 to start building on top of v3 without worrying about like finance forking from day one is maybe something that is desired by the community i have to say that you know we were a little bit unsure how it would be viewed i think that our our team that kind of stands by the you know as massive open source fans you know our team was basically unanimous in this decision um in in how to kind of uh license this code and you know i think that overall we did have some you know we were a little bit unsure how it would be received by the community but i have to say from what i've seen you know it's received a fairly positive response and i've probably had much more people reach out to me and say that they're happy with the license and had people reach out and say that they're unhappy and i've had people at other projects reach out and say that you know they've been thinking about the same things and that they've been you know and that they're considering using it for their project um and i think it's just worth noting that like how early defy is and how these networks will ultimately evolve is still being figured out and you know i think that we've never been like a project that's like afraid to try to push the boundaries and and innovate and build in new ways and so i think that that's kind of how we see what we're doing here so hayden maybe this uh dovetails with the last question so um this is a time delayed license right and you mentioned uh binance uh smart contract chain and we we're also referencing i think the through line for this entire episode is is also ethereum values right trustlessness permissionlessness decentralization many of these are also bankless values that aren't instantiated on other chains in other locations let's talk about optimism right so maybe this also goes back to uh the the moral of the story as david was saying which is if car carl gives you advice if your friend carl gives you advice you take that advice um carl is you know uh on the optimism team among many others but this is a an ethereum optimistic roll-up which bankless listeners will be familiar with with that technology we've had vitalik describe it before uh and others and what was interesting about uniswap v3 is you didn't try a scout uh shotgun type approach so we've seen yushi sushi swap for instance um where are they going to deploy sushi swap they're going to deploy everywhere and let the market pick kind of who who wins uniswap has decided to go with one specific solution at least so far and that is um optimism and optimistic roll-ups can you talk about why and like maybe maybe there's a values discussion here maybe there's an engineering just i'm not sure what the discussion is but why yeah i think that it there is a values thing here it's like it's not hard to scale ethereum if you don't care about the values of ethereum you just sacrifice decentralization you do it every time and you've scaled ethereum every time and so you know what's really hard is scaling ethereum or like scaling ethereum without sacrificing what matters which is decentralization censorship resistance permissionless trustless all these things and doing that is hard and it takes time and it requires focus and this sort of shotgun approach is like oh i'm going to deploy anywhere and it's like i'm not i mean i don't know you know we're still kind of like we're kind of very like we don't see any benefit to deploying you know on a more centralized version of ethereum because that doesn't really add to what uniswap is and it doesn't extend what uniswap is capable of doing it kind of sacrifices what uniform is capable of doing to kind of you know make it able to support higher volume or something and so i think that you know what we're really excited with about optimistic roll-ups and exploring with optimism is you know how do we scale ethereum as ethereum is today you know how do we kind of allow for more participants more trans you know lower fees uh higher throughput while retaining the security of ethereum while keeping the permissionless nature of it um and that's a you know long hard project right if no one has done that yet no one is scared i mean they have they're very scaling uh solutions but no one has scaled d5 yet right can i yeah can i ask you a question on this hayden because this is an important question uh to me do you think users care right so i care the bankless community cares decentralization matters trustlessness matters but the the the counter argument to all of that that's been put to us is that at the end of the day hayden users just want to trade they'll go with where the liquidity is they don't care about trustlessness and permissionlessness and decentralization the way you're talking about it and the way we talk about it at bank list will users care about this i think that users don't care until they have to care um users don't care until that goes down users don't care until like you know users don't care until you know their transaction is reverted or their funds are locked right users don't care until right up until the moment that they're like you know forced to care and by then it's too late and so the important thing to note is that like you know yeah if there might you know we've always known that more centralized systems will continue to have a very broad user base until decentralized systems are able to scale better and so it doesn't bother me that binance chain exists and gets volume you know it doesn't you know i don't see any difference between binance and buy and finance chain and the in the the the exchange applications on finance chain like pancake swap doesn't seem any different from finance to me right it's like the same people running the same servers like i you know what i mean like like yeah people don't care and people do go to binance and that's fine because right now it costs a lot of money to make a trade on uniswap and we don't want that and we're going to do the work to scale units while or and the community will do the work with us and the community will also but but the point is that you know an optimism will do the work but but the point is that you know unless we're able to scale what matters which is the decentralization it nothing else like no there's nothing else that then like nothing else really matters like i don't my goal for uniform is not to be the highest volume centralized exchange in the world my goal for you swap is to be a decentralized trading platform and to stay that way and so you know there is kind of this you know the one other aspect of the fragmentation versus like using one solution to start with is kind of just like a focus thing which is like we've always taken the approach of doing one thing the best way possible rather than trying to do everything at once and so you know what is kind of i think negatively like we've always like you know unit swap is still we're still using a science like we're still just pushing the boundaries in the envelope on this sort of one very simple idea that started with union swap v1 and we're d and it's nothing has really changed in the kind of vision nothing's really changed in the kind of goals or what it does it's just getting better and the goal is to kind of continue on that that approach and get the best version of this thing and you know deploying it in 50 different places to me feels like saying oh we've kind of finished what with what this thing is and now we're just going to try to put it everywhere but there's no point in putting it on 50 different chains if we can like if we none of them is better than like the best like if there's no best version of it like we want to create this sort of actual best l2 experience for unit swap v3 and putting it on 50 different places won't do that i don't think like being able to kind of concentrate and focus and build one thing properly uh seems like the right approach and it's a hard long difficult task but it's entirely doable um and we're quite excited for it my personal answer for this is that it's easier to make people care about ethereum's values if we build the technology that helps facilitate it and i see that being built with unit swap i see that being built with optimism all of a sudden it's not hard to scale ethereum's values because of these applications that are being built hayden yeah optimism isn't that far away could you perhaps tell a user story of what it's like to trade what you think it may be like to trade on unit swap when a uniswap is deployed on optimism and available to everyone yeah i mean i think that you know i think that first off it's worth noting that the general roadmap for optimistic rollups is like to progressively scale in like a way that aligns very nicely with the ethereum roadmap and so you know it can scale maybe 10x maybe 100x whatever it is over with just on each one as it is today but sort of as sharding comes out that has like a multiple multiplicative effect on optimistic roll-ups and so you know it's worth noting that like it's not going to be like an overnight day one complete like well first off it will be like a massive order magnitude improvement overnight but it's not going to be like the end-all be-all and there will be like a steady process of improvement and iteration um moving forward uh the probably the biggest difference uh from the start on optimistic relatives you're gonna have like instant transaction confirmations um where you sort of have this kind of economic guarantee your transaction will be included in a block or someone will lose a lot of money somewhere uh basically the the person kind of the sequencer essentially um so basically being able to you know right now there's sort of this really negative ux if i submit a transaction it might take 30 seconds it might take two minutes it might take five minutes or maybe i'm a user who didn't set the gas properly and it's gonna take you know it's never gonna ever execute right and so having this ability to have like an instant like you click it and then immediately you kind of have this ability to you know immediately know whether or not your transaction's going to be included um especially for like smaller value transactions maybe if you're sending a million like you know 20 million dollars or something you're going to want to wait for that to be posted to ethe l1 in a few blocks like you know there's always this kind of it's the same way that on ethereum layer one if you send a billion dollars you're not gonna be like satisfied after one block um you're gonna be satisfied after x amount of blocks and so there's still that kind of aspect of it but for people doing sort of smaller trades you're going to have this like really awesome ux of just instant transaction confirmation um which is going to be really awesome and then yeah we're definitely expecting massive reductions in fees um although we're also expecting you know a massive increase in usage to the point where it's not going to be like if we can do 10 times more transactions it's not going to be a tenth of the gas cost because we're probably going to have you know uh you know a lot more trading that goes along with that um and it's going to make maybe even like smaller arbitrages more profitable and people are going to be doing much smaller trades there'll be a lot more activity um but definitely like lower gas costs uh instant confirmations are the two probably biggest and then over time that will continue to get scaled up uh with you know the broader ethereum scaling roadmap i think it's going to be an exciting few months and what's interesting to note is how successful uniswap has been on ethereum mainnet in spite of some of these ux challenges and you know wondering as it enters this new landscape where there can be even more successful elsewhere um last thing on all of this uniswap now has the a larger treasury than the ethereum foundation if you sort of uh aggregate all the all the uni tokens and the value of that and the you know uni governance sort of governs over all of that right now um you were talking about values of decentralization and trustlessness uh hayden do you see uniswap and the governors of this treasury as being sort of stewards for decentralization in a similar way that the ef has been a steward for decentralization we've heard vitalik and the ef talk about these values we're we're hearing unit swap talk about these values like do you accept that that mantle or that role in any way yeah i mean i'd say that not me personally but i'd say that in general right the goal for this governance system is to kind of continue on with the sort of values of ethereum and the values of decentralization um you know what we don't want to see right is you know all the treasury funds going to like early whales who provide the most liquidity in the first year of its existence right we're trying to like think about this like what should this look like fi like two years three years five years like we we always try to be forward-looking right we're not trying to compete against uniswap we're competing against like the future and we're preparing and and or and and so the or in terms of like how you know uni-swap sort of or at least how i see you know uniswops roll and so you know definitely what's been really exciting from the treasury right is the only the the only thing that the treasury has done so far is is fund developers and community members building value and growing the ecosystem right the the sort of main thing that has passed so far is this this grants committee um which is now funded i think like 25 26 different uh community projects and hackathons and developers and i think that that's sort of an early look at what i personally hope is to come i mean in part we're gonna just see uh it's sort of up to the community on how it wants to evolve over time and we might see things happen that we've never ended that i've never anticipated um but what would excite me the most is to see that the treasury go towards kind of bringing value to the ecosystem to growing the ecosystem to building out value um that sort of benefits everyone right to help kind of build this more fair more decentralized financial system that we're kind of all you know in the ethereum community rooting for um that's kind of what i view as the goal of governance um and so that might be why it kind of seems to function a little bit differently from you know other projects which maybe focus more on like short-term user acquisition um you know more like you know just yeah anyway peyton as we come to this the close of this uh conversation and again thank you for for coming on to the bankless podcast and giving us your time i want to zoom out and kind of just touch on the the moral of the story that we've been dancing around for this entire podcast uniswap seems to be just a beloved application of both like deep ethereum researchers tinkerers developers but also just the broader community and users of ethereum and even by the outside world the people who don't yet understand crypto and ethereum but they've heard of uniswap and they think it's cool what to you what are the reasons as to why uniswap has found itself to be in such a beloved position by such a wide swath of community members yeah so i think that there's a few things that go into that i think that a big part of it is what we've been talking about about like the values that it sort of espouses and adheres to um in some ways we kind of you know i was talking about like early on i always kind of you know it was always about can we make this follow in the footsteps of ethereum espouse the same values as ethereum and sort of lead by example for applications built on top of ethereum so like by staying true to that i think that has allowed it to be become much more popular within the ethereum community um i think that sort of the other maybe thing that people really like about unisoft is what it enables them to do right it kind of unlocks this you know the same way that i was able to build unifop now other people can build all these things on top of it like i wouldn't be able to do what i did without all the the massive work that vitalik did and all the people at the theater foundation and carl did and you know what uniswap now does it enables other people who want to build uh this this decentralized financial system to then build now they can contribute and they kind of have this other lego you know the whole money legos narrative that i'm a big fan of um right it enables more people to kind of build on top of uh uni swap and build on top of ethereum and build new exciting things and so i think that you know adults of all ages love legos and or people of all ages love legos and i think that people love you know the kind of vision that it's working towards and so i personally that's kind of what i see as as what has kind of led to its you know popularity and success um from a like a social and community standpoint and it's extending that outwards not just about uniswapa about ethereum at large what do you think the lasting legacy of ethereum will be upon our world yeah i mean i don't think that there that i think that there we have a vision for it but i think it's really important to recognize that there's a difference between like realizing a vision is really difficult and it's a long arduous task that can't be done overnight and and it shouldn't be taken for granted as a guaranteed outcome um and so i think that my hope or sorry my hope for ethereum is that it leads to a fairer you know better financial system that empowers more people um to participate to you know helps redistribute wealth to more people like you know my hope is it leads to a better fair world um what i think is a little bit scary to me at times is that people kind of take that for granted as like a oh if ethereum succeeds no matter what the world will be better and i think what they mean is like no matter what i'll be richer and i think that that's like a very different thing and there is this aspect of the ethereum community that i do worry about which is the at the part of it that doesn't have doesn't sort of adhere to the values it doesn't like aren't into it for the values the the values behind it and i think that it's just it's really important that you know the people building it kind of stay true to them and continue to like promote them uh because you know i don't know what the legacy of ethereum will be i know what i want it to be and and i think that we all have to fight to make that happen yeah well said sir uh we're happy to join you in that fight certainly on the on the social layer um last question for you hayden this may be a fun question uniswap has passed so many cool milestones we talked about maybe the biggest so far which is exceeding the total trading volume of coinbase the next milestone maybe is an order of magnitude higher something like exceeding the total trading volume of s p or the nasdaq when do you think that happens if it does at all um i don't know two years it's hard to you know every time i protect two years it happens in like one night i don't know it's only two years um but it could be you know there is something insane about how you know like if you just look at how many assets like right how many new tokens are created every day um you know there's about the same amount of tokens created per day as like are added in like several years to some of these kind of legacy financial like you know trading platforms and so uh yeah there is kind of a you know i do see a world where that is like a really interesting milestone where you know i think it kind of depends on you know crypto growing and mass adoption of deep like if there is mass adoption of ethereum and decentralized finance and i expect there to to be like i definitely have a very strong conviction that you know decentralized finance will see mass usage and mass adoption as it scales and as the ux improves which it's doing and it will take time to get there but once that happens once there is mass adoption i i don't i think that this the ceiling on what defy can do is far greater than the ceiling on what central like traditional finance can do right like you know if the like the milestone might be a thousand x what what you know what uh traditional finance can do because of how much more can be done um so yeah i think that the sky is the limit but i don't know that the you know it's hard sometimes to predict you know usually when i predict it it happens faster but then you know you don't also don't want to predict in the hat and and be wrong and have a bt soon but i i see this stuff exploding over the next few years for sure and definitely orders of magnitude increase in users absolutely well we share that optimism hayden adams this has been well worth the wait sir thank you so much for coming on bankless and long live the unicorn thank you i really appreciate you having me on and maybe next time it won't take two years absolutely we'll do this again soon uh guys resources for you some action items go read the uniswap birthday blog that was a post put out by hayden adams that goes through the timeline we used some of that information to compile the timeline for this episode also read the uniswap v3 announcement those action items will be in the show notes as always guys risks and disclaimers ethan's risky trading on unit swap is risky all of crypto is risky so is defy you could lose what you put in and that includes if you are a liquidity provider but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence we recommend joining our daily newsletter podcast and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your bank list experience you'll get access to our market analysis our alpha leaks and exclusive content and even the bankless token for airdrops raffles and unlocks if you're interested in crypto the bankless community is where you want to be click the link in the description to become a bankless premium subscriber today also don't forget to subscribe to the channel for in-depth interviews with industry leaders ask me anythings and weekly roll ups where we summarize the week in crypto 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