I do not believe that aliens have visited the planet what do you tell somebody who says this to you to me and this is my bias the evidence is is overwhelming and I noticed my shadow in front of me and then the Shadows were moving like that you know sudden they coming close and I realized there's what and I looked up and this object went right over the top of the trees can you give a sort of generic account no no that's why it's called TS top secret so other things that you can't talk about can't talk about it no that's what allows someone like Neil degrass Tyson to come in and say well it's not possible for them to get from there to here well that's ridiculous I mean even he knows that if it is easy enough just to skip dimensions and move from one parallel world to another if the timelines are misaligned or dis aligned or not aligned then that means that something which is a trillion years old could skip back to us which we're only 14 billion years old XYZ at the White House is really pissed at you and you should not ever say anything like that again because Title 18 applies I said what does that mean lethal force is operable you've started numerous multi-million dollar companies you have risen to the top of of Academia with an endowed chair here at Stanford Medical School you've made research breakthroughs in cancer and immunotherapy that have helped save many many lives and yet you also research a topic that is essentially forbidden by Academia and that's aliens before we get into how a top scientist researches this question which is really what I want to do in this interview I'd like to get an idea of how Gary Nolan the man first became interested in Aliens well I can actually trace it as far back as um I think the first time I opened a National Geographic I was about 8 years old um and there was a star map there a foldout star map of the Old National Geographics and it was basically a depiction of the current understanding of the universe and where uh our galaxy was relative to the few others that we could see at the time and where we sat in the Milky Way and it was a picture which you know you realize when looking at it you're you're you're spanning you know hundreds of millions of light years uh and I just remember thinking at that moment what kind of civilizations or stories or histories might have risen and Fallen across that expanse over the time frame that it covered which was billions and billions of years uh and it just stuck with me as a as a as a thought um and about then the time that I was able to read better books and novels I actually was completely uninterested in Tradition fiction I gravitated to science fiction and the science fiction that I found the most interesting was uh depiction of uh Alien cultures and uh especially people like Larry nen uh David Brin and others who started from a let's say an evolutionary standpoint of what assumptions would a culture have about its philosophy of Life uh based on where it evolutionarily came from you know Larry nien being one of the best where he says okay if you had a if you had a culture of intelligent herd animals how would they be different than a culture of uh obligate carnivores and what would be the the philosophical stances of those and I just found that fascinating to think about and I always liked um as well what is currently today called um Space Opera which is the you know the large views of a universe which is so big that Humanity gets lost in it it's interesting that already from the beginning science was a huge part of your interest in extraterrestrials me you mention Evolution and this map of space and that brings me to the next thing I just wanted to ask at the outset it is not immediately obvious why somebody who specializes in immunotherapy cancer research would get tapped to investigate potentially extraterrestrial phenomena so where was the connection between these two aspects of your research well one I remember just sort of when I had discovered YouTube and you know you click around and you find a YouTube about about aliens and I remember clicking around on them and going that's interesting these are interesting stories this is interesting um and uh I came across a claim that somebody had about a uh a mummy that had been found a small mummy um only about that big uh that they claimed was an extraterrestrial and I thought well it's a body and it looks relatively well preserved I could prove or disprove what that is uh and so I contacted the people who represented the owner uh I got a small piece of it uh delivered to me this is the AMA The okama Mummy right and you know over the next few years because I did it on my own out of my own pocket uh I uh showed in fact that it wasn't uh Alien at all it was a human uh with mutations that could have explained what it looked like and I had probably 13 or 14 other uh co-investigators on the paper including uh a whole division of Ro Diagnostics to whom I had actually sold one of my companies for genomics uh analysis and then I had three other Stanford professors uh on the paper and so um you know it was the idea behind that was was okay here's an extraordinary uh claim let's just do regular science you don't need extraordinary evidence uh and so um that got me started um I actually um earned from that the ey of the UFO Community because they said oh here's another debunker coming in and I said no I and and actually papers it was worldwide the paper went worldwide um and uh you know what better clickbait than Stanford Professor sequence as alien baby yeah you know so um uh but it was wasn't to me about debunking it was just about doing the the science of it and so because I was doing this work and I had been in a in a movie about it even prior to the publication I came I guess to the attention of people in the government who had at the time uh been investigating a number of pilots and intelligence Community individuals who' been harmed uh through some extraordinary means I mean they were claiming to have rashes on their body and most of these people were either in the Diplomatic core or the intelligence Corp or a few a few pilots and and some of them a very small subset of them uh had claimed interactions with UFOs but these had all at the had sort of filtered up the chain of command and over to what was called at the time the weird bucket it's like we don't know what to do with these things but once enough of them had been collected it became uh an object of Interest because it was like okay well now we're starting to see a pattern and so they were doing medical workups and psychological evaluations of all of these people uh and which I had nothing to do with um but as part of it they wanted blood tests done and so as you mentioned in the intro I've developed a number of instruments that are used worldwide for uh everything from blood analysis to biopsy to you know intracellular analysis to Gene delivery Etc and and um they showed up in my office literally unannounced and said hey can you help us uh on this and they began showing me data and they didn't mention right away that any of these individuals were you know had been had seen uh craft or had been claimed to be harmed by Craft and so um you know uh over the first let's say 15 20 minutes I was looking over the data that they had brought MRI uh output Etc and I was saying well this is really interesting and then I started going down the list of the things that they had and I said wait what is this about UFOs and that was when I thought it was I actually thought it was a joke at the beginning um and they were deadly serious about it and so I gave them advice uh and it turned out that the majority of the people that we actually had looked at was about six or seven years before it was known as Havana syndrome we actually called it at the time by the time we sort of worked out some of the uh medical Diagnostics we were calling it interference syndrome because these people were being interfered with uh and um once it was obvious that it was now something that was involved with the Diplomatic Corp Etc that cohort of a hundred of about 8 and 90 of them ended up you know being shunted over to the US government where they were now classified under what is today called anomalous Health incidents uh and it's a serious thing you can go find it on the military uh websites uh the government military websites uh as to how it is that it should be uh dealt with and and who in the government you need to uh contact Etc but once you had taken those 85 or so people off the list what remained were you know let's say 10 or so individuals who claimed interaction with with UFOs and so you know those were the more extraordinary ones to me and I was like okay well I want to interview some of these people I want to go talk to these people because I wanted to know that I wasn't being fooled uh and so I was flown out to meet some of these uh individuals um and uh you know that as far as I could tell they were telling me the truth you know I'm I'm not a lie detector test but I have a I'm pretty good judge of character um and when you suddenly have you know half a dozen or so people that you've met who tell these stories uh and these are not like you know it's not like a high school kid on a bender you know after the prom uh these are serious men and women uh who uh had you know who we trust with the defense of the United States uh who had a story to tell and what was what what upset me the first about it was that not that it had happened to them but that they were being ignored by their medical superiors or their superiors and laughed at and the damage was obvious I mean the damage was incontrovertible right I mean there it is on an MRI you know people say oh well these are all anecdotes these are stories yeah but you have scarring inside of their body scarring inside the body doesn't happen uh you know randomly you have scarring inside of the brain that looked like white matter disease um and so uh I don't know it was just it just it just raised my personal eye about it and you know the righteous indignation that first of all they're being ignored and second that one of the options of what actually might have happened was being ignored that you know it's yes it is an extraordinary option that these individuals came in contact with the UFO absolutely extraordinary and probably the least likely of a thousand different alternative explanations and yet most of the other alternative explanations could be dismissed with uh and the psychological aspect was off the table because these people were were you know had gone through batteries of tests uh and so what was left was you know something interacted with these and UFOs or aliens or interdimensional or you name it uh you know people call them ultraterrestrials or something it was still on the table and it and and and this is where I actually have a lot of um disagreement with my colleagues where you know they say well you everybody says that you claim and you you believe in aliens I don't believe in anything I believe in the data I believe that if it's still an option it stays on the table I mean that's how I became such a good Scientist by seeing data that was sitting off the curve and not letting the students or the postto ignore it and say explain that dot that is way off the curve um it's either a mistake or it's something interesting and so let's go look at it and that's always where Discovery lies that was a great answer and there are so many things there that I'd like to touch on in detail so I'd really love to get back to these anomalous health events for instance but one thing that I want to hone in on first at the outset of our conversation is what makes good science and the methodology that you follow in answering or dealing with these questions and first I think that will bring us back to the ocam mummy which is in a certain sense not that interesting because as you said it you don't believe it is of extraterrestrial origin but there's there're interesting things there so the first thing that I just want to ask about it is one why did people think it might have been of extraterrestrial origin and then was your attitude in dealing with this hypothesis that you wanted to confirm it or that you wanted to disconfirm it so it was neither it was just I can tell you what it is um I mean the reason why people thought that it might be was because of the shape of the skull and um the fully form Med bone apparent bone structure so the first thing I did when I got the um x-rays uh of the of the young girl now that we know is it was a young girl uh probably premature um birth uh was that I checked with some people at the in the department of radiology uh and pedi pediatric Radiology I happen to know the the chairman of the of that uh group um um and I said hey um who can I talk to about this and I said well you know it turns out that we have the world's expert now working with us uh who is the literally wrote the book on pediatric bone disorders and the genetics of pediatric bone disorders and he's on our he's on the paper um and he's a was a professor here and he uh I took the x-rays to him and he said well this is UN usual um I have not seen this group of morphologies uh before all in one uh it could be explained by XY or Z but he didn't laugh me out of the room he said it might be interesting so I said okay let's do it so I arranged then to get a piece of um uh of the rib uh from Barcelona where the where the specimen resided um and uh you know proceeded to do the the genetics and then you know and this is to your point of how to you do good science so I started to get results that I didn't understand uh and you know when you're doing um old DNA or DNA that is you know not fresh uh you often get little chunks of it and so um what you're trying to do when you do a sequencing is you take all these little chunks and you try to line them all up by doing what's called an an overread you do more reads of the genome uh like 28 or 30 in this case overread so that you could line it all up um and there were there were more mutations than there should have been so I said okay well who do I need to talk to uh to get uh the the skinny on how it is that I should correct for this and so it turns out that there are procedures to correct uh some of the sequences the reads of the sequences that you get so a lot of the stuff that I initially thought was unknown uh that excited every everybody you know in the first movie um about it was were actually explainable by bringing in the experts you know it's it's in in in science knowing the limit of your knowledge and your capability is how you do good science it's it's knowing that I don't know this I need to go ask somebody else and so all the experts in either bone morphology or how to fix it uh in terms of the sequence reads or in the case of where the uh the specimen came from it was from the AMA region of Chile um we had in the department of genetics the world's expert in southern indigenous Southern American indigenous peoples and the DNA of them and so he had the databases that allowed us to compare the what were called AAL frequencies um of the uh DNA and show that it precisely accorded with the the okama region of indigenous peoples so you know again it was I'm not an expert in that I never would have been able to even find those databases at the time but we had one just literally down the hall for me and so that's how you do it and then we brought all those people together uh we had my students we had people from Ro we had the students of some of the other people who all collected the data uh and then they wrote most of the paper paper the students um and uh I then cleaned it up and made it polished for submission to a journal um you know and so at the end of the day the the the onus of being right or wrong rests on me and not on the students whatsoever uh and then went out there and published it and became a huge you know click Fest I got phone calls from just about every major newspaper on the planet about it um and then the next week actually then then a storm hit because the Chilean archaeology Community felt that uh I had at the time disrespected the uh the grave of somebody that they said was that this was stolen from a church well I didn't know anything about that you know and and um and yet in Chile there had been a um a movie about the specimen and not saying anything about this in Spanish so even if I had known Spanish it still would have been that so it was like and then they attacked me on that and I was just like well you had 20 years to do something about it I did something about it so I think uh you know the and I have shown what it is uh and now we can put this to rest and I basically you know even at the time of the first uh um news reports I said now that we know this is a young girl this should be be returned to Chile and it should be given proper proper burial rights it shouldn't be a circus act um and so one of the people who uh who um had been involved with let say uh um pring this uh was very upset with me uh and claimed that I had committed fraud uh that um I was being paid off by the CIA to lie uh and so you know those are all pretty slanderous statements but you know it's I I think if you're willing to get out there and just do good science you don't need to go and get all legal about it um and so uh you know I just I mean literally to this day of yesterday I was on Twitter and somebody was saying Nolan's a liar you know because he did this about about the autocom you know um it's that's social that's social media today um but to me it again was about just showing what the data is being very careful with your conclusions and the paper that we wrote was filled with caveats about what we felt the genes were about and that's that's how a good paper is done you you you just make sure that you caveat the heck out of it and and don't come to the kinds of conclusions unfortunately that the media does so the media will take any normal science paper and will turn it into something hyperbolic uh often too often unfortunately and so then the scientist gets painted with the conclusion that somebody in the media you know news title room came up with uh and then you're defending that so one of the things I learned from all of this is don't let the media Define what it is that you say politicians will tell you probably the same thing that don't let the media Define The Narrative make sure you continually correct it well one of the reasons I wanted to start off by talking about this is it's ironic to me that the UFO Community would have been upset with you at first for this and and labeled you a debunker because what they should want on their side is an extremely rep reputable intelligent scientist who examines the data very thoroughly and clear mindedly and does not make pronouncements about UFOs unless they are thoroughly vetted and he really believes in them because otherwise you become the boy who cries wolf and now our listeners and viewers will have seen how thoroughly you investigated this claim before rejecting it so that when later in this interview as I suspect ECT you might do when you do make claims about UFOs they will understand that you have only made these claims after thinking about them and researching them very very carefully yeah and and actually to be honest I'll make very few claims about UFOs per se apart from the fact that I've seen one up close uh when I was a paper boy uh but that's an anecdote uh so uh but it's um what was important at the time and after the CIA got me involved uh and then they introduced me to other scientists who were working literally with the government on this matter and who were and have now come out and said and it'll be actually in a in a in a movie called age of disclosure coming out uh shortly uh has said we worked on the on the reverse engineering program we worked on alien craft I mean those are claims right but I know these people I've worked with them now for 10 years I've worked with and spoken to probably at least half a dozen people who have worked on What's called the program or the Legacy program and so um you know have I seen an alien body no have I seen a craft on the ground no um but if I use the same kind of science Insight uh that I do when I'm talking with another scientist about some subject matter that we're both you know competent around uh and I look at their body language and I then put it together with a dozen or several hundred other things that I've heard from other people the story all meshes together so but the the the objective though has to be from a scientific standpoint that all of those are at the end of the day just anecdotes and stories and so I can't hand as of yet to a colleague of mine uh the definitive proof I can show them a library full of evidence uh all of which points to that there's something here um evidence is not proof data is not evidence evidence is contextualized data proof actually only really happens in math um and so you know the important thing I think for your audience to understand if they're not a scientist or or an engineer is that a scientist is meant to be wrong every day what you put out is part of the story of a search for truth and so what I say today will be recontextualized tomorrow when I collect more data or when the data that I look at causes me to ask the question what does this mean oh wait a second maybe I need to do this experiment because this is how I will rewrite the view of what I think reality is and we've seen that in physics over the decades you know everything from uh you know Newton through uh Maxwell's equations through uh Einstein and then quantum mechanics uh and then more recently String Theory or a half a dozen other theories about how reality is is um put together and we still don't know what the answer is but tomorrow or next week or next year there'll be a new theory that maybe gives a better picture of what is so I think the the audience needs to understand that the objective of a science scientist is to be wrong today but writer tomorrow no very interesting it's also interesting that you mention String Theory because String Theory quite famously I mean it's been a huge topic of discussion and investigation especially over the last 30 years or so and no experiment has ever come close to finding a string right but and yet it's the fundamental uh Paradigm or the foundational Paradigm in high energy particle physics right now and it sounds like you're of the opinion that we have some even if we don't have the Smoking Gun the the laser gun on the table between us you think that there is very very strong evidence that is mutually compatible and that points to yeah this hypothesis to me and this is my bias the evidence is is overwhelming overwhelming um and yet again I need to do an experiment which I'm in the process of doing with others extremely well-funded it's called the skywater project and people can go look it up uh where we have individuals who have claimed to have been on the crash ret Ral programs uh and uh we have ways we feel of um getting the craft to show up in uh restricted airspaces where we know that they will not be oversights of planes or we know they're not satellites etc those are all pretty easy to to rule out um and hopefully we'll get either better pictures or maybe we'll get somebody to land and walk over and Shake our hand you know but that's the objective is to get the kind of scientific evidence that everybody claims doesn't exist and so it has to be done right so I I will call this desert talking about the actual evidence that we have but I'd like to now move back a little bit and set up some found foundations for our discussion going forward the the first thing that I think is important for me at least that we discuss is some terminology because we've used a number of different words already extraterrestrials UFOs uh uaps aliens a couple I didn't know interd dimensionals and Ultra dimensionals ultraterrestrial ultraterrestrials and so what I would like to do first is just get a handle on what a UAP is because I have the sense that that is the the current term of art to describe these phenomena so the term is a redefinition uh of UFO which is unidentified flying object um but what happens if the object's not flying but it just underwater so you know you would call that maybe a Uso on unidentified submerged object but what happens if it's in space it's not flying in space there's no flying in space at space there's no air to fly through so um it was and and this is in the best scientific tradition is create a term that generif what it is that you're talking about with a definition that can cover as many of the things without saying anything about what you think it is we know identif unidentified it's anomalous meaning it's doing something we don't know what it is what what and how it's doing it and it's an object end of story you know or in this case phenomena because maybe it's not an object maybe it's a ball of plasma is a ball of plasma an object I I don't know talk to a physicist but um you know we think of objects as being solid um so that's sort of been the that has been the redefinition of of um of UFOs to UAP do you want me to go into the others well first these anomalous health events that that you discussed earlier if there's for instance damage in somebody's brain and we don't know where it came from but we have we might have reason to believe that they were in the vicinity of a UAP would that brain damage itself be a UAP or would there be a no no no that's an anomalous Health incident and again uh the reason for calling it a generic term like anomalous Health incident rather than Havana syndrome is Havana syndrome is meant to signify specifically what was happening apparently at the Cuban American Embassy uh in um in Cuba and so um so no it it's it's not I mean UAP are meant to be some cited object or effect which seems to affect the local environment uh in a way that we can't explain okay and then the other terms that I mentioned I would love to hear about them but only the ones that you think might be relevant to this conversation so the ones that are still used so if ultraterrestrial or interdimensional are used I would I'd love to hear about them so yeah so I mean so okay conjure in your mind what the word alien means um Ridley Scott Ridley Scott right Hollywood uh almost always in you know the movies the aliens are are here to pillage our planet uh or you know are going to eat us um and so that's unfortunate uh for one but alien also implies from another planet um and so the moment you say that you limit the possibilities of what it might be and and so that's what allows someone like Neil degrass Tyson to come in and say well it's not possible for them to get from there to here well that's ridiculous I mean even he knows that um you know the universe is 14 billion years old even with a conventional rocket I could get from one side of the galaxy to the other in a mere 500 million years right but um you could do that step by step you could create something what's called a Von Newan probe which you send out one of them it lands on a planet it makes a 100 copies of itself and it sends those out and just with conventional uh rocketry you could skip your way across the Galaxy and get from any place to the other now you're not the same person that got off the the ship on the far end as who got on or launched it in the first place that doesn't matter you can do it um and so to say that they can't get here presumes that you're taking a bus ride or something and so it's just on the face of it a ludicrous statement um but it still though limits what the possibilities are because you've probably heard of the multi-dimensional hypothesis that if you look at quantum physics one interpretation is the many worlds hypothesis that you could have a situation where reality is not just the 3D space within which we op operate but it could be laced or overlaid with hundreds or millions or an infinite number of additional universes all of which are simultaneously operating we can't see them we can't get there but maybe somebody else has figured out how to I I've done a number of episodes about the many worlds or ever already an interpretation of quantum mechanics and one important feature of these parallel universes is that they're not causally connected at least according to mod modern um quantum physics so is the idea that sure that may be our current ever edian theory of quantum mechanics but as you said science never proves anything only math proves things from axioms it is at least conceivable that some more advanced Society has an improved or or different theory of quantum mechanics that says oh the these here's how to do it okay here's you know so there are these um uh you know imagine a civilization imagine us we don't walk off a cliff in the next hundred years imagine us a million years from now what will we be capable of doing what would any civilization be capable of doing we don't know but so one of the things that needs to be on the table is that they need to you need to say these might be interdimensional it's easy to say it it doesn't prove it it it but it what it does do though is it opens the aperture a little bit in terms of well if it is easy enough just to skip dimensions and move from one parallel world to another then if the timelines are misaligned or dis aligned or not aligned then that means that something which is a trillion years old could skip back to us which we're only 14 billion years old um so there's that then there's the the ultraterrestrial which posits that a civilization might have Arisen uh millions of years ago uh hundreds of millions of years ago maybe maybe some small sect of dinosaurs achieved a level of Competency and then they decided to go underground and they you know created a civilization there um and they said well it's better to be Underground than above ground for whatever number of reasons or and uh so maybe maybe they're what it is that we see um which is interesting because the things that people claim that they see actually have no ears and no noses and reptiles don't have ears or noses that is interesting it's interesting that's something that's it it's not it's not anything that anybody claims I'm just sort of I'm just I'm just making the observation um so ultraterrestrial could also be some body who arrived here through the Von Newman probe approach you know tens of millions of years ago setup shop again decided just let's just go under the ocean or let's go under underground and build our stuff down there maybe they're afraid of other things that might be out there so they don't want to advertise where they are you know that's the that's the that's the Dark Universe idea um of uh of many people that you don't you don't maybe you don't want to advertise that you're here cuz maybe you make yourself you know a Target um and we've been broadcasting to anybody who has a radio telescope receiver uh that we're here um so maybe that's the reason so those are both classified generally under ultraterrestrial uh again just an idea so I don't want the interdimensional question to be a sticking point or anything but I do think it's it's interesting for a number of reasons uh so quantum mechanics or the standard uh model of particle physics is our our best confirmed physical Theory to this point it's confirmed to something like 14 decimal places and what question this raises for me is how are we supposed to assign a probability to something like the possibility that it's it's totally wrong and there might be travel between these disconnect Ed Dimensions or that these anomalous phenomena can be attributed to the results of a Von noyman probe from that landed 10 million years ago how do you assign probabilities to these wh ifs and whether or not we should investigate um well you have to put keep them all on the table but you know maybe you hope that one day if you meet any of them they'll tell you what it is that they are um and uh I mean I'm frankly less interested in what they are than what they do uh or what we think that we can see them doing one more thing to add uh uh from to all of these things is the other one called time traveling hypothesis that there's some future us who figured out how to time travel and come back and watch our watch their Beginnings it would be like us going back and you 20 million years ago and looking at our most distant I haven't heard this one that's interesting yeah so um that one's been around for a while um but there's a professor Mike McMaster who wrote a book about it uh and you know pretty interesting and he kind of fleshes the whole thing out and again it's just it's just one of many ideas you know it's a fascinating idea too I in preparation for this interview before you sent me some of the titles that you thought I ought to read I read van Dakin's Chariots of the Gods and that kind of makes sense in the context of this hypothesis in that we are so very much interested in what happened in ancient Greece and all these ancient cultures we that's why we have archaeologists working on them right now so it is interesting to think that oh yeah maybe in the future we would go back to try to study these back or somebody else might come here and you know look at us uh and say okay well let's let's study this primitive Society um you know but I think one of the things you have to add into your whole evidence cache is okay well where do these things seem to show up uh and Beyond you know somebody seeing it you know on a farm or you know when they're in the car you know there's they show up apparently a lot around nuclear sites some of the most famous incidents of course are around our nuclear aircraft carriers there are these famous incidents about them showing up over nuclear missile silos where they shut them all down you in the US and they just say look at what we can do we're going to shut all your stuff down or they show up in the the former Soviet Union and they turned the missiles on and start the countdown uh and there that's a famous there a very famous story there around that so um when you see these kinds of things maybe the answer is and this is what I call the angry monkey hypothesis is that maybe they're showing up and because they're now worried what the angry monkeys can do because now the angry monkeys can make nuclear weapons and despite how powerful and futuristic they might be they still can't stop a nuclear bomb right from hurting them so maybe if we are about to flower out into the local Galactic arm sometime in the next thousand or 10,000 years just Again by conventional means maybe the neighbors want to know what the angry monkeys are up to very interesting okay I'm I'm I'm glad though that we took the time to discuss some of this termin ology you already brought up there is this abundance of evidence and and we will get to that later but I still want to set the specific evidence aside and talk about our prior probabilities for believing that aliens or any of these other numbers of possible entities could have come to Earth so in the beginning of our conversation you mentioned as a child being struck by this map I think of the Galaxy in National Geographic and you're wondering what sorts of cultures might have bloomed across space and time you you also mentioned an an entity with our Rockets could travel across the Galaxy in in 500 million years so the question is before looking at any of the specific evidence that we might have How likely should we think it is that over the course of the last four billion years or even now extraterrestrials would have come to Earth so I mean that's actually the question that I pose to people is the question is not are they here but can they be here and the answer is yes they can be here uh and so you just have to look at uh NASA and what all of the um the exoplanet analysis is showing is that the conditions for Life exist everywhere I mean absolutely everywhere um doesn't mean they look like us it just means that the raw material to create life is not unique to this planet um and so you know one of the actual ideas is that we didn't come here we didn't get here or we're not here because we H we happened here but there's this idea of that life has been traveling across the Galaxy pan sperman pens spermia yes exactly um and people go oh that's crazy well they just resurrected a worm that was 30,000 years old from the from the ice did they really yeah yeah they just did and and there are and they just showed recently that actually uh the substrata miles down in the Earth is filled with life miles down miles down bacteria bacteria that divide every 10,000 years oh wow okay that they're basically Frozen in time and that they are so slow growing and yet that's their mode of act so and there there we already know that there are creatures like tardigrades that can survive essentially any environment so imagine you're a planet that has life on it and another planet comes risen by cracks you open uh huge chunks of you go you know splatter across the local Galactic arm and you eventually end up circling another sun and you eventually like an asteroid end up hitting uh a planet that is you know fertile possibility for life so that's the panspermia you can people say oh come on you can't happen well every piece of metal that you're wearing right now came from an exploded Nova from several billion years ago that became a g gas coalesced into another sun and created a planetary dis or a pre-planetary disc that then condensed into planets so it took several billion years to make the metal that you're wearing today so why can't it be that life could move from one place to another and so that life is everywhere so you know the the point is that it only took once life established on Earth the Earth's 4 billion years old I don't know life was a couple of billion years or so old it only took two billion years for us to arise eventually out of the non-sentient animal life why couldn't it happen elsewhere if there's a billion other planets out there that have life so I don't I just don't I just don't get the um the push back you know I mean the the answer is there's not evidence yet of it there's evidence that it could happen because the seeds of the opportunity are there um but you know we're waiting for you know the something to arrive that shows that let's say there was Life on Mars right that if there was life on mars or there's life on one of the moons of Jupiter you know which have the oceans uh the ice oceans but clearly liquid water underneath um you know I I think the chance of us knowing that life life can be other than on Earth is probably only a few decades away you know maybe Elon will will'll take one of his Teslas to Mars and go look or you know maybe we'll get something we'll find something on ganam or one of the other plets that seems to answer the question whether or not it's possible that something like a bacterium could arrive on Earth but how do you think about the question of whether or not something intelligence could come to Earth well I just I said that was the that's the Von Newan probe um you know there's there's ways that we can go near the speed of light uh using something called a ram scoop where you have an electromagnetic net that's strong enough that it can collect the local hydrogen and push it through a Ramjet uh which humans have Ram Jets I mean a lot of our um cruise missiles and things are basically ramjets um I'll probably get yelled at by Engineers that'll correct me on that but essentially the idea is that you you suck the hydrogen in one side by collecting it electromagnetically across many miles of interstellar space and then that gets uh pushed into an engine and fired out the back a Fusion engine let's say if you had a Fusion engine um and so you know you could get uh up to many times conventional human speed and get to where you're going now there's all kinds of things that could get in the way if a small pebble hit you at 100,000 miles an hour or even you know some fraction of C light speed you know you that would be the end of you so you have to have defenses against that you could imagine but again you can imagine electromagnetic defense that shunts things aside or that can see things ahead and shoots a laser at them and blows them up before they hit you you know Etc um and that's not even imagining what it is that some of the claimed movements of these objects would say must be possible you know I mean we've we've all heard and seen of the they go from zero to 5,000 mes an hour instantly or they take right turns at 5,000 m an hour you know you'd be mush on the windscreen if you did anything close to that even at 100 miles an hour um so clearly the 've got a way of manipulating inertia and mass or ignoring inertia and mass uh and one of the um one of the ways that it could be done was actually came up with a by a standard physicist by name of aluer Mexican physicist who came up with the idea that you could Bend space uh and warp space just like Star Trek um with the use of negative mass and negative energy or negative energy and you basically warp space you put yourself in your own bubble and you you don't move you just you just basically slant your local Universe in a way that allows you to move but so you aren't breaking any laws the bubble moves as fast as can be the problem is with that uh is that the amount of energy required to accomplish it is like the whole rest mass of the of the Sun every second so um at least his in his original equations people come up with other equations that bring it down by orders of magnitude um but the other problem is nobody has negative mass or negative energy nobody knows how to produce negative energy but then there's other physicists once they see those equations and they say oh well here's a trick that maybe we could do so that we can just use regular mass and but where's the energy coming from no matter what it's more than you know the whole planet can output uh and so you have to basically come up with some way of using some people claim that they're using the Z point field have some way to access the Z point energy field which is all around us um but it's so locked up in SpaceTime that you you can't access it it's sort of the rest energy of the Universe um but particles appear and disappear down at that level at the plank level and so somebody said somebody's saying oh they somebody has a way to kind of rip it open and pull out the infinite energy that's sitting in the universe um okay it's an idea um but it to me is exciting because if somebody knows how to do anything approaching what it is that we see them doing that to me is just an exciting opportunity to advance human knowledge uh and so why even if it's crazy shouldn't anybody who has an interest in it be allowed to explore the opportunity because the value of the outcome is so enormous that it makes the risk worthwhile and you know that's basically Venture Capital yeah right yeah and it's how we make huge breakthroughs Paradigm breaking breakthroughs in in fields like physics some new interloper in the field working outside of the the Paradigm of normal science make some breakthrough with anomalous phenomena that the current research researchers have been unable to figure out very often ignorance is the engine of creativity um you know we often think that creativity uh requires some kind of forethought sometimes it's just I don't know what the rules are so therefore I'm going to try this uh and oh wow it worked and I mean I I don't I I I can't even tell you the number of times that I have been told by at the at the time then Senior scientist I'm a senior scientist myself now um that what I wanted to do or thought could be done was impossible you can't do that you know you can't make retroviruses in a couple of days it takes three months I showed it could be done in three days and now every gene therapy that's done in the world with retroviruses or lentiviruses uses my basic process every crisper Library screen that's done that people hear about crisper all the time if it's done in a mamalian cell and it's done using retroviruses it was done using a technology I developed here at Stanford over 25 years ago and it's still actually one of my best grossing licenses throws a significant amount of money at me every year this this might seem a bit tangential but your background you're not an MD correct correct so is your background you're an expert biologist or how what is the the very granular field in which you were trained and you're an expert I got my PhD here in the department of genetics um but I trained as an immunologist in the department of genetics with lenon Lee herzenberg a husband wife team who had invented uh something called the floyer the fax fluoresence activated cell sorder um and uh had also with one of their postdocs who had been my me also my mentor when I was there they had invented the um the monoclonal antibody uh humanized antibodies that um were used and are used in nearly every immunotherapy in the world today those and then Stan Cohen who was chairman of the department when I went there uh had uh was part of the Cohen Boer patents those three patents in the department of genetics were Blockbusters and the biggest at Stanford frankly the biggest in the world and so I lived in an environment of that kind of take basic research and turn it into something translational hand it to Industry and then get back to the lab right don't rest on your laurels this background is perfect essentially for what I want to ask because as an expert in genetics you're an expert in the fundamental building block of all life on Earth earlier you mentioned that when we look around we find all of these planets that appear to be habitable that's what the exoplanet research research has told us but one of the biggest and to my mind least sensible constraints on xenobiology the unspoken assumption is yeah these planets are are all apparently habitable but for creatures like us when we should be considering all sorts of other Alternatives does life need to be carbon based does it need water does it need to live in the quote unquote goldilock Zone does it need to be DNA based so the question that I would ask you then because I think that this would significantly raise our prior probability for there being life elsewhere in the the Galax Universe let alone the Galaxy is should we expect that life needs to be carbon based or require water or what do you how do you think about this well I I think from a basian prior the the answer is the the the the probability is one that it can happen with carbon right so we know it can happen with carbon uh and oxygen um and actually this is interesting something I was thinking about the other day um the majority of our body is made up of carbon oxygen nitrogen hydrogen um maybe a couple of other low mass elements what does that mean those were amongst the first elements that were created at the instantiation of the universe MH so the fundamental um before you go on for our listeners that's because a lot of the heavier elements were created in Supernova in Supernova they needed the compaction of the Supernova the fusion events that were occurring uh so the the con the essential material required to create life existed probably only a few you maybe a billion years I don't even know what the numbers are but very soon after um the universe cooled sufficiently um so that's the that's the first part but something else happened um uh at the start of the universe as the universe was instantly expanding um there was uh an opportunity for plasma and uh energy to have nearly every organizational structure possible so take the entire mass of everything in the universe and now compact it down to the size of the Galaxy as it's expanding and uh what you get are organizational um energies that could have just by chance been life and if any of them had the ability to make more copies of themselves with that and that actually is a hypothesis of a famous physicist boltzman so these are called boltzman brains so his idea was that there was organizational plasmas and energies that just by chance because you had every possible organization that could have been uh of those energies uh and you could have actually created Consciousness or something that acted like life yeah as far back as when the universe first started yeah no boths been brains are are quite fascinating the idea that based on these random thermodynamic fluctuations if the universe is infinite then we should much more likely to not actually be boltzman brains because there would a nearly infinite amount of them but only ensi a significantly smaller number of real Flesh Blood and Bone brains and that that's a a novel form of extraterrestrial than I had that I had not considered yeah so there you know there there it's a again it's a hypothesis it's a you know it's a brain experiment if you will uh but it's you know it you you look at you go huh well yeah maybe maybe Consciousness has been around longer than even planets were or Suns one thing that's really fascinating about this idea is that undoubtedly boltzman brains should be considered extraterrestrials and while I mentioned at the outset of this interview and you would agree with me of course I think so maybe I shouldn't say of course but that most of Academia poo poos the idea of extraterrestrials boltzman brains remain a serious thorn in the side of physicists because our theories point to their existence but it results in this very problematic sort of paradoxical thinking because we have to assume then that it's much more likely than not that we are aliens right that we are boltzman brains so that's funny I mean I you know when people poo poo it or whatever I frankly just start ignoring them I consider it I again it's it's the difference between evidence and proof it's as long as it's still on the table we should have the conversation we can assign a probability if we want but dismissing it outright is inappropriate from a scientist I mean that makes you a dogmatic individual that makes you a priest it doesn't make you a scientist and anybody who you know takes that tack continuously might as well just give back their PHD because they've basically violated the oath of what it is that a scientist is supposed to do right I can understand the Viewpoint that we should for in assign a very low probability to the possibility that the multiple dimensions in the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics are causally connected and beings could travel between them but it seems absolutely wrong to rule this out as a an in principle possibility yeah uh so I'm with you that people should it does not make sense for scientists to be atheist or a e a extraterrestrial in this case you know it's I I think you've heard the similar things well you you know what you know Thomas cun and the cian revolution that you know ideas uh you know bump up against reality um or reality bumps up against people's former ideas and then suddenly everything changes and on the other side of that uh of that Cliff are uh everybody now assumes that it was right and how could anybody have seen it as anything different um Gandhi has a you know similar thing first they laugh at you first they mock you then they fight you Etc I forget what the what the steps are but the the same idea being that um it requires somebody or groups of somebody's to be steadfast uh and holding on to the value of an idea until it's formally disproven um and if you say well Gary why are you why are you ruining your career doing this it's like ruined what career I just I just won the Lifetime Achievement Award here at Stanford in the name and honor of two people who I was you know in awe of um you know congratulations Paul Berg and Arthur cornberg two Nobel Prize winners here at Stanford and the biochemistry Department um yeah I mean if one looks at your CV it is very hard to find anybody who is more accomplished than you are in their field well it's it's you know it's it's nice to be a part of a group of individuals none of us who look at the other in Envy because we all are secure in our accomplishments I don't need to prove anything to anybody um and having done all of that I now and having taught you know cadres of of students and other professors how to do a lot of these Technologies how to think about stuff in a different way because I do math and computers as well as the biology um it's like okay where's a mountain I haven't scaled yet and so proving or disproving that something like aliens or inter interdimensional or whatever are here would be the cherry on top of the cherry on top of the cake M uh for me um and I have the time I have the resources I have the connections I work with the government on this stuff I know the people in the government who are doing it and I'm and I I have a you know I have a top secret clearance I I I deal with this stuff that's pretty cool and so it's like but I can't say some of the things I know but I also know that there's whole groups of people in the government who want to get the information out so we're all working to do it legally or if we don't wait for Daddy government to do it for us then let's just do it ourselves because the information's out there as to how to how to how to do this okay I'm I mean I'm salivating waiting to get to all of that evidence there are two last things though that I I want to make sure we touch on before we move to that evidence and just because I think they're important when having this UAP conversation and I mean parenthetically I've had something like 250 episodes of this show I have interviewed some of the brightest Minds in the world I I spoke with Nome chsky for instance and and plenty of plenty of Nobel winners I spoke with Danny Conan the reason that I've gone 250 episodes without having this conversation is not because I think that this is an unimportant conversation I think the question of extraterrestrial life is among the most important conversations that we could be having was that I was waiting until I had the opportunity to talk about it with somebody like you who is so well established that people have to take what you say seriously myself included and that's why I'm taking the care to really establish this before we get into the details and the last two things that I want to talk about the first one is the fairy Paradox and so I just wanted to ask for our listeners who haven't heard about it what is the the fmy Paradox and then how do you resolve it or think about it right well fmy was um an astrophysicist or astronomer um I think uh I think I'm right up on that uh who basically said uh well if they're here and if the universe had so much opportunity they should be everywhere and we should be able to see them and so uh the firy Paradox came with an equation uh which he assigned values to the probability of Life the probability of the number of planets the number of suns in the universe or in the Galaxy Etc and you run the numbers and um you know the the fact that we don't see anything means that the numbers would have to be smaller than we thought they were well we know the number of planets is high we know that the opportunity for life is now high so what we thought when he wrote the first equation is different than what we believe it is now um and so yet we're still up against the idea that we don't see them we don't see you know lights in the sky all you know everywhere we look radio signals what have Dyson spheres so so let's yeah Dyson spheres I mean Dyson spheres I mean come on I mean that's just like it's like if you've achieved a level of Technology you don't need to you don't need to collect it from the Sun you probably can access the zero point field right right right so you don't need to do that so um I actually with jacqu Valle wrote um a paper to setti about this saying well maybe maybe the maybe two things the answer is um it shouldn't be a search for intelligence or life it should be a search for Consciousness uh first of all and so where can Consciousness reside so bolman brains might be you know we're looking at the we're looking at Suns or planets whereas they might just as well be an Intergalactic space you know it could be a pub somewhere in the middle between Andromeda galaxy and here where all the bolman brains hang out um so could be could be you know metaphorically um and so so maybe we're looking in the wrong place you know maybe maybe a safe place to be would be at the center of a sun you know if you could manipulate gravity and and space and time you could just as easily be in the middle of the Sun as you could be on a planet why is the surface of the planet any good necessarily lots of impacts there lots of impacts I mean if you have a a longtime civilization you probably have learned the lesson of go underground or go under the ocean or go somewhere else so you know and and yet the methods that we're using to look for it is essentially electomagnetic right I mean and even us today we're emitting less electromagnetics than we were a few decades ago right that is I mean know we we use low power uh because why why use power that could reach Alpha centuri if you can signal your satellite with Bluetooth or something right equivalent so we use fiber optics Etc so the window within which we went from signaling with fire signaling with electromagnetics to now thinking about quantum teleportation uh and um uh uh what is it oh my God uh entanglement right for information transfer has only been like you know went from mud Huts to that in a thousand years yeah uh and so that that window is so short that there could be a million galaxies a million civilizations out there and it flashed by before we had the means to even detect it so it just doesn't bother me um and so you know and people talk about the wow signal you know that was what the you know the wow signal was um when SEI was first set up um there were some signals that came came that were that looked like they were from you know they were what they were looking for the radio frequencies that they were looking for like jod Foster and contact um and uh and so and yet it was transient and didn't repeat and so that was called the wow signal um maybe the wow signal is already in the skies above us you know they're showing up but why do they need to come and talk to us I mean when you move into a house and let's say they were a uh race of intelligent ants at the bottom of your garden do you feel you need to establish diplomatic relations with the ants no sometimes it feels that way so yeah you know but it's like you we don't ask anybody's permission to do anything because we believe we're Superior so what somebody else is superior to us and they say why do why should we ask why do we need to show up on their White House law they're Primitives why should we bother yeah but then that comes back to also the term alien mean alien means alien if you were to talk to those ants how would you do it how could you talk to them about Instagram they talk to each other via chemical cues how do you translate your mode of thinking to another species that it has wholly different assumptions about how the universe might operate so you know why do we believe that they need to show themselves to us they apparently have been at least if if you believe some of the evidence and I sort of see it as an IQ test can you see us for what we are when you're ready to see us for what we are then we'll show up but you know you're still shooting each other so why should we come down and and deal with you guys I frankly don't even think that anything that might be here is even who might have actually sent the stuff or who's in control I think you would if we were to talk to those ants we'd probably make an an avatar that looked like an so I think that the whatever it is that we see or we might be thinking that we're seeing could just as easily be an avatar created by something a bolman brain maybe the bolman brains just basically instantiate something material for the purposes of interacting with the you know the Flatlanders one of the things now that we're moving on to the dessert which I mean in this context there's a lot of dessert to talk about here but when I asked for recommendation uh books that I might read in preparation for this conversation I was very surprised by what what you suggested I had anticipated some of the more popular books like Chariots of the Gods but instead all of the text that you recommended had to do with governments and National Security and in particular uh a book called UFOs and government UFOs and government historical inquiry by Michael swords at all is is one of them but first of all something that I should say is that I think that our listeners viewers if they're interested in this topic they should look at this book what I was struck by was how thoroughly researched and pretty neutral it was I was expecting that all of this research would immediately be just assuming that aliens existed and then seeking to drag it out of the data but this was a legitimate historical inquiry into how the United States government and other governments around the world have reacted to the very real phenomena of reports of UFOs of extraterrestrials uaps and what I wanted to ask you though before we talk about maybe some of these books and other books is why you recommended that I read books about National Security and uaps for the purposes of this conversation well I think because we are talking about National Security uh the data collection of National Security uh is on par if not better in many cases than what happens in the science so what you have are records you have a discipline around the collection of those records um you have a chain of command that responds to something that might be a threat and so therefore you have increased attention paid to it um and so the reason why these books around National Security are so good is because they are as detailed because the records exist some you know somebody in the Department of Defense or the military collected those saved them and they're still there they're in on microfish or they're now available online Etc and so you can go back and research them do correlations figure out what's going on um you know but you then have people again who I've said this earlier we depend upon them for our National Defense we pour trillions of dollars into the coffers of uh these organizations to defend us and to collect the data um and so when you have pilots and heads of the Air Force you know uh Clapper James Clapper just came out and said yeah um this stuff is real we don't know what it is what it's real he he hinted he knew what what it was but he just didn't go there you have Marco Rubio now our secretary of state literally on film one that I just saw in in Austin the movie that's coming out age of disclosure about by Dan Farah um Marco Rubio and Senator rounds 20 minutes total talking about this stuff saying it's real really yeah Marco Rubio yeah all right this is not a man who is just going to be saying these things because he thinks it's funny right and uh so I I advise when it comes out I think Dan is looking for distributor now um it was at South by Southwest it was uh the feature Premiere film South by Southwest um and uh so he uh you know I mean who you going to believe me or or your secretary of state I obviously have not done the level of research on these topics that you have so when I first looked at this book I was just shocked by the sheer volume of reports out there coming from not just civilians but military members and I mean the books that I looked at began around World War II and there have just been I mean the numbers are really staggering just the amount of reports and again whether or not these people really saw something that comes from some other civilization is not that's not what matters right now what matters to me is just the volume is just really amazing and so that's where when I say the evidence is overwhelming is that you you you can brush off one or two but you have a hard time brushing off all of that you also have a hard time brushing off newspaper reports going back to the early 1900s where you get these repeating stories of a farmer saw this object in his in his field he went out to the object there was a little man next to it the little man saw him and then jumped in the thing and took off an otherwise credible individual and this is like from the Kansas local Town paper right before they even knew what these things were called in the early 1900s this was going on you have this story in um Zimbabwe of the aial school um where there's a beautiful movie made of it were 60 children uh black and white at this interracial school um something landed near their schoolyard and these little guys came out and thought at them what a fascinating story a psychiatrist from Harvard John Mack went and interviewed them and he's a specialist in child psychiatry and said these children aren't lying they ran into the school you know told the teachers teachers came out teachers didn't see anything but then the kids drew what they saw the story is All corroborated and these are like six to 10 year old kids yeah you know who just don't have it in them to lie like that and the story the movie is actually a it was happened around I think 1990 or something it 30 years later go back to these kids who are now grown up and they say yeah it happened it changed my life MH this raises I mean another series of very important meta questions questions about science and the questions that I have in mind here are how we're supposed to establish the reputability or believability credibility of a witness and how we should factor that into our evidence surely the huge volume is something that we really need to take into account here but when evaluating a single case off camera you mentioned that you've had some more recent UAP experiences maybe we'll talk a bit about those later but first you mentioned at the outset of our interviews that as a paper boy you had a UAP experience and I think now might be an interesting time to hear about that experience right uh and then I'll follow up on this right so um I was probably 12 years or so old Circa 1970 something 74 or so um and uh it was early morning and I had to get a paper to this one guy uh at the end of um the street that I lived on um Sheffield Drive and uh between his house and the next street I needed to go to uh was a sort of a little Cops of woods but I needed to get the paper there by 5:30 because he needed it by 5:30 and if I didn't get it there by 5:30 he complained to the office so I know what time it had to have been um and then it was probably March or so cuz back then it you know it um the snow was kind of on the ground but it wasn't you know it wasn't lots of snow um and uh I was walking through the woods this area always kind of scared me but I was walking through the woods um and then I noticed my shadow in front of me uh and the branches and the trees and then the Shadows were moving like that you know sudden they coming close and I realized there's what and I looked up and there's object went right over the top of the trees you know I didn't know what it was um I I I I still don't know what it was except it couldn't have been a blimp because if it were a blimp or any kind of Airship I was in I lived in a hilly region it would have it would have crashed another 200 feet away where it was um and so you know and it wasn't until literally decades later when I kind of became aware of UFOs in the you know in the Zeitgeist of Pop Culture that I looked back and said was that what I saw um you know it was it was the lights and it was kind of you could kind of see the shadow of it against the sky um it's a anecdote but it is not explainable it was totally silent totally silent um didn't stop nobody got out I didn't have any missing time or anything like that uh but it was enough to solidify in my mind later that these are the kinds of events that people have mine are nowhere near as dramatic as a lot of what other people claim um but it solidified that it needs an explanation and so that's part of what drives me is like I don't need anybody else to validate what I saw um and and I don't need anybody else to validate why I should be asking the question so let's just do it um and you know but then I come across people who've had much more you know personal contact with objects or things or claimed beings Etc and I so I just collect the stories uh but you know I don't have to be the one collecting the stories you've seen that book some of the ones that I gave you but then there's like books by jacqu valet or Richard Dolan Richard Dolan is a fantastic historian just where a whole he's WR writing a series of books on Usos unidentified submerged objects really and he goes he he takes hundreds of stories that have been collected over the decades he's done all the nitty-gritty research details each of them but he's a fantastic writer so he inter weaves with his own kind of humor uh and writing so it's it's an engaging read it's not just a read of facts um then there's jacqu valet who wrote a book called wonders in the sky um and what he did was work with a librarian an intern of international history who went back through the records I God knows how they found this stuff hundreds thousands of years finding examples of events that we would today classify as a UFO but written by the generals the historians the Kings the scientists of the time and recorded in on parchment or literature in the literature um one of the most fantastic is Alexander the Great in one of his uh battles these bright Shields showed up in the sky above us uh and um we saw it as an omen of of you know of our eventual win um there's a story in Japan of an object that that basically uh washes up on shore and a woman gets out of it it's it's weird um and and this is where someone like jacqu valet comes in and tells us you need to forget about all this alien stuff even interdimensional stuff you're dealing with a phenomena that almost acts like a form of Consciousness which as he puts it fantastic thing is that uh to them reality is negotiable so again what you're really talking about as he presents it is something like a boltzman brain some sort of force uh that has an ability to make itself be seen as almost anything it wants to and his hypothesis or thesis is that you know back when we were s incredibly primitive we were saw these things as the spirits in the forest then we saw them as Gods then we have God right we don't believe in God necessarily anymore plenty of people do I'm not disparaging it um now we believe in technology and Aliens represent technology so maybe what we're dealing with is something that is just saying I'm here those of you who are smart enough to recognize what it is that you see you know I can engage with you um but you are not alone so the constant message across time is you're not alone again it's just an idea and it to me is kind of particularly feels poetic to to put it that way um and it what I like about that kind of approach is you know there's this story um in South America when the Conquistadors first showed up uh at the shore that the um people at the time who were not primitive couldn't recognize the ships for what they were right right uh but at that moment their world became both larger and smaller larger because they were part of something smaller because they were less than what they thought they were yeah I think they famously described the ships as clouds or something like that when they saw men on Horseback they just couldn't fathom what could them you couldn't see it and so you know I know of plenty of people who were you know stories where somebody sees it and the others just don't see it because like it's like the mirror test for an animal in the jungle you put a mirror and only animals of a certain intelligence level are capable of understanding eventually that it's them in the mirror right um and so I see this again as an intelligence test there's and one of the things that I find Most Fascinating as sort of a a thread through many of the let's call them encounter stories is um somebody says I saw a light in the distance and when I saw it it started getting closer and it's almost as if when you see it it knows that it sees you and then it says Ah here's somebody who can see me I'm going to go I'm going to go show them I'm the data off the curve and there's somebody intelligent enough to recognize that the data is off the curve that I'm not just a star I didn't just walk by I'm going to tell my my own anecdote very briefly and when I was a child I had for I don't know a period of a few months or a year maybe when I was I don't know 10 11 I had really intense night terrors where I would sleepwalk and I had these recurring dreams that there were aliens just um somewhere above me uh sending threatening messages that they were going to kill everyone and I would run around screaming and my parents would have to like hold me down and they were worried I would jump out of the window and eventually uh I had to go on lorazapam like an anti-seizure medication just because these were really intense night terrors and I can very easily imagine so I don't believe that they were aliens that were I think I was just having bad dreams but I can easily imagine myself not having this belief and thinking that this was something real much more substantial than I do in fact believe and this I imagine is a large problem with children who are presumably they're less developed than adults and more likely to believe things that are not happening are in fact happening and so what I'm wondering is how you have looked back on your own experience and ruled out the possibility that something much more mundane like uh Daydream or a hallucination or anything else could account for what you observed coming over the trees yeah it's no it's there's just no dreaming of what happened so I don't I I don't even need to re-evaluate it at this point um what it was I don't know but uh that it happened is for sure um but you know to your point though I'm going to challenge your point of that children are subject to hysteria let's say Okay um what happens if the stories I mean your story might be because you were already inculcated with TV and the pop culture idea of what they might are what they are so you were immediately able to put monsters in the form of aliens you know into your closet essentially uh or under your bed um but what happens if the stories come from children in the 1940s 1950s before any of before there were television um the 1960s we had three channels on my black and white TV when I was a kid um so how do you explain a commonality of a story I mean you could maybe call it a yian uh you know Collective unconscious if you want uh but why do they form as aliens with the same features um so maybe I'm just going to challenge what you're saying maybe it's young people as you said are not formed not grown up because they're not indoctrinated right into not seeing it or not hearing it maybe you were sensitive I think if you if you took somebody like Neil degr Tyson for instance and ju we're just imagining a hypothetical scenario if an actual UF okay well we can imagine some some brilliant non UFO believing in scientist if a UFO or an actual alien spacecraft again this is just a hypothetical zoomed across the sky and this person saw it they would absolutely believe that they did not see it they would say okay this was a comet or or something like that whereas a child would be much more open to the possibility that this was an extraterrestrial craft so I I take your point that isn't interesting but but how how about this so you know we we talked about I mean I see you uh and you are you know uh really just a collection of of particles that have no actual form right you just you know at at a higher level you have matter and I perceive you as a person but at the at the end of the day there's nothing there you're just a bunch of waves and we interact with each other through waves well what happens if there's senses below yet still our full understanding using physics that are just on the edge of believability uh that are actually the manner by which uh these things interact you know so there's and let's address one one thing um you know there's claimed telepathy with these things well I don't think that means it's magic I just think that means it's a kind of technology that we don't I mean I can you know there are devices that can transmit sound into your head from a distance Right Use the resonance cavity and and transmit sound you know to you so you know again Elon Musk is making a neural link it maybe a sufficiently advanced civilization can reach into your brain with electromagnetics very finely targeted and can manipulate your brain in a way that allows you to hear or see things I have no problem believing that somebody a million years ahead of us might have achieved that level of sophistication I accept that this is certainly a possibility but the question is how likely should we think it is that this is possible I I just I I assign no probability I just say you just want to I just want to have it on the table you know and and and it's like okay well because you know I I I started as you know the soul foundation with a couple of other individuals and one of the questions I posed to the audience uh during one of my talks was okay here we have an extraordinarily broad range of phenomena uh that need explanation what kind of universe has to exist to explain them and that's really what I'm saying is that you have a phenomenon and you don't have to say that the phenomenon is real you just have to say what has to be so that the phenomena could exist and once you know that it can be or you think that it can be that allows you to design experiments and instruments to address whether it's true or not and and that's the fundamentals of how science operates say like when I look at you know my day job is reverse engineering human biology trying to understand how human biology goes wrong in the context of cancer and why the immune system gets dislodged from its normal function of wiping out pre-cancerous cells um and and that's so I I'm constantly thinking of okay what what is this what is what so what kind of universe exists in the body of how cells signal interact with each other through some complex interplay that allows for this to happen where cancer takes over or how when you trigger the immune system this way it eradicates the cancer so that same thought process I apply to these other problems uh and and so again I would besch your audience to say and realize I'm not telling them that anything that I've said is true I'm saying it's a possibility and if you have a better way of putting it together I want to hear it MH well the the last question though I want to ask about the credibility of witnesses before we move on is so when I am talking to you and I hear you telling me this story about your encounter I have many years of experience dealing with other people I I think I have a pretty good grasp on when people are telling the truth and you seem entirely believable and honest about this but I imagine that in these many many thousands and thousands of reports that the US government collected some of them are not credible and what I'm wondering is is this just where the numbers come in where certainly you have to Discount some number of these claims but once you have a huge volume of them you no longer really need to care about the credibility of any individual wi correct correct you know and unfortunately the problem problem is that the the more spectacular claims that can be disproven are the ones that are used to paint uh the credible uh with that tainted brush and so um you know there's nothing you can do about that we're we're dealing you know we're we're dealing with with humans and at the end of the day to me it doesn't it doesn't matter if anybody else believes me or believes that what I think is possible might be true because I'm on a mission to do it myself right and I'm on a mission with other people who are as compelled as I am to prove or disprove this with the money to back it and so our answer is we don't care what you think we're going to do it ourselves and by the way if we get technology you're going to benefit we might make money on the technology but you're going to benefit in the long run so we're in it for you we're not in it for us okay so now that we we have this question about Witnesses I think adequately dealt with I I do want to return now to the governments that have been collecting these reports and while I suspect that we will focus on the American government I found it very interesting that these books you sent me surveyed governments from around the world that were collecting very similar data and in some cases almost the same data uh in in in different places but the first question I'd like to ask in this regard is is there a general pattern for how the United States government responded to all of these reports it received um well for a while it was a priority uh to collect the data on until it apparently became a priority to collect the data but suppressed that it had been collected interesting uh and that was Circa the time that somebody realized that this might represent a technology uh that if used in the right or wrong way could have military implications in terms of you know I mean look if you could if you can instantly go from 0 to 5,000 m an hour uh you win the war you know if if you can as in some circumstances it's been shown um if you can drain a battery at a distance uh of any type lead uh lithium Etc to zero you win the war was that something uaps were doing yeah okay yeah um and if you can do any of the things that these things do you win the war uh and so it is the responsibility of a government to war game scenarios and so you know but as you mentioned it's not just the US several of the major countries in NATO uh have records like this Brazil has extraordinary number and probably one of the most celebrated cases in Brazil there's two actually one is the Venia episode um where multiple individuals saw this object in the city of arenia uh as well as a supposed entity of some kind um great movie by the way by James Fox um and then there was the colaris episode uh at the mouth of the Amazon one of the towns near the mouth of the Amazon where over uh Syria of a few weeks villagers were claiming these objects were showing up and zapping them and doing things and then the Brazilian military showed up and has pictures of of all this stuff coming out of the Amazon and Etc and I'm sure you've got plenty of witnesses for this oh they had lots of witnesses for that um and so you know it's just I mean what I mean part of me is like well why would they why would these objects bother what are they up to um why would the Brazilian military feel it necessary to suppress the information you have China which is probably the most opaque of the places where uh data has been collected but they established their own UAP investigation group uh just last year um formal really yeah um of course the Soviet Union uh and um I mean how many more do you need you know of people to uh to collect this kind of data but you know I think the people I know who claimed to work on the Legacy program who were brought together for a meeting to say should we let this information out came to the conclusion that the risk of letting the information out was too great and it at least twofold one is it would upset the world order if you realize that you're not the top of the intellectual chain right uh and calls into question um whether Humanity can protect itself from such a thing I don't think we need to protect ourselves they wanted to wipe us out and anybody with those kinds of capabilities could just do it like that so I'm not that doesn't even bother me that there have malignance or malevolent intent um so but then the other side is that access to such technology um could give anybody basically the equivalent of a thermonuclear bomb in terms of energy opportunity I mean if you can if you can go from zero to if you can move a one- ton object you know from the surface of the ocean to space in less than a second which is what some of the observations have shown you know there's recordings of this right radar recordings of this uh pilots who all say that this is what happened if you calculate the energy requirement it's like the entire thermonuclear output of the United States for a year Kevin n basically did this calculation he's a physicist in New York um so if anybody has that you could drop such a thing on a city and done so that's a valid reason for not letting technology out but I'm interested and I've proposed so you know the US government uh three years in a row and Senator Schumer and Senator rounds tried to get this out there was a UAP disclosure act uh which literally 60 Pages has in it uh listed uh everything from you know you're going to release all the reverse engineering of alien technology I mean literally it says that in the ACT um you're going to release all the information we're going to establish a a board that I was to be nominated on uh to overse see the release of the information in a controlled manner um and uh it was about to get passed um but then believe it or not two Republican Congress people came and lobbied against it and they were the head of the intelligence agency the intelligence committee and the head of um armed services uh and they lobbied against it and then all the aerospace companies came in and said no you can't talk about this they literally there was they lobbied said no no we shouldn't let this information out this is in this is in the Open Press information so why if there's nothing there would you have the aerospace companies who have been reputed to have had access to this stuff Lobby against it and why would two Republican Congress people do so when you have people like moscowitz uh Democrat ma Nancy mace um and others yelling at their counterparts saying we have to let this information out I mean Moscow it's literally said disclosure today disclosure tomorrow disclosure forever needs to be this information needs to be let out I know that this question was rhetorical but I I'm going to ask it anyway I mean what what is the answer what what would the aerospace companies have to gain from this um what do you actually think well I mean forget anti-gravity and forget traveling blah blah blah do you have material uh Alloys for instance that have properties that we might want to use for our own planes even if it has nothing to do with anti-gravity and my big push and part of my push you know for the UAP disclosure Act was the creation of a public private partnership opportunity where um if the if the aerospace companies have this stuff and if let's say that they were siphoning off money uh or otherwise uh misappropriating funds or taking a technology and then not letting the government know what it is that they've discovered from it and then claiming patents around it um so maybe there's some illegalities there uh what do you do about that um you know now 40 years later maybe you need to offer amnesty to these groups uh so that they can come let the information out and because maybe the materials even if they're not working just studying them like reverse engineering a cell we don't understand how the body works but I can still figure out what some of the proteins are doing so maybe I can figure out something about how the metals are made that I could deploy in my own Industries wouldn't that be a great opportunity just just studying how somebody else made something the claims from the inside is this stuff is actually engineered at the atomic level literally put together at the atomic level we don't have anything like that nothing close to it no we are just not we just don't move atoms I mean we you see the beginnings of it in like nature or science where somebody picked up an atom and put it there and they make the word IBM on it you know you know out of you know moving some atams around we don't have that ability yet so there our claims I mean we saw at the beginning of the episode the beginning of the conversation that will soon become an episode how thoroughly you and thoroughly you investigated and how seriously you took the claim that the okama mummy was extraterrestrial I'm wondering do you have claims that you really have vetted really think are believable that the government is in possession of Alloys of this nature that we just are we couldn't have created ourselves only stories from people who can't come forward right now but you believe them but I I believe that they're telling me what they think is the truth okay you know but um and I appreciate how careful you are in saying this yeah you have to be and um because otherwise you'll get cornered MH uh and you know the the best scientist is creates a thousand exits to their argument um because they don't want to get cornered right something that I often hear and I admit to feeling this sentiment at times when I listen to interviews like this people seem Cy and and they don't want to come out and say oh we've we've got this footage but we we can't show it to you or and it it sometimes can come off as oh they're just really not confident or they're hiding something or they're lying but but what I really appreciate what I'm getting from you is that no you're just very careful and you don't want to make claims that you can't fully stand behind some of some of the claims you're making you can fully stand behind them like the anecdote you shared with us or some of the things about skywater maybe that we'll get to but but I was asking about how seriously you take the claims that the government is in possession of Alloys that we could have not produced ourselves okay so um there are public materials from uh claimed events so one of them is the Council Bluffs uh Council Bluffs Iowa an object was seen by multiple people uh above uh a lake uh near an airport it was hovering lights Etc um something was seen to drop from it some sort of and so they thought it was a plane crash they showed up there was you know several tens of pounds of molten metal on the ground how did it get there um I have the metal uh I have the original you know pictures personally I personally I published literally the world's first peer-reviewed academic article on analysis of a UAP material now I found nothing extraterrestrial about it it was just it looked like slag but what was fascinating about it was that it was a mixture of iron titanium aluminum and a few other things but it was not homogeneous it wasn't like somebody put it in a blender and made you know a homogeneous mixture it was like somebody took a whole bunch of ingots of this stuff partially melted them mush them around and then dumped them overboard um and so I published you know the the mass spectrometry analysis of that and made no claims as to what it was just here's the data because maybe somebody 10 years from now will figure it out but what's fascinating about that particular story is that I have metals from about three or four different incidents like that where people see this stuff being dropped from the objects and they go and they show up and there's this malten metal on the ground what does that mean I I don't know what it means maybe it tells us something about what they're doing or how they Propel or power their craft or maybe it's the maybe it's the exit it from their microwaves I don't know you know I just don't know what it is but it's a commonality um I have a material from ubatuba Brazil uh a fisherman who uh saw an object that dropped something in partway of it dropping it exploded all over the beach uh he collected some of it um chunks of it uh and um I have pieces of it from two chains of evidence uh that uh and I did something called Atomic probe tomography on it which is basically you can see literal the positions of the atoms in it uh it's 99.99% silicon 99.999% silicon 1950 something who makes silicon at that level of Purity explodes it over a beach in Brazil who makes that level of Purity Silicon Valley makes that level of Purity but only in the last 20 or 30 years Okay so and one of the two chains of evidence had magnesium isotope ratios that are way off Earth normal I have no idea what it means but what I do know what it means is that it's was engineered and made by somebody or something right and it's just a fact so I don't have an explanation for what it is but I have the material right and anybody else can use this that the material is in several people's hands I have another material uh the so-called bismuth uh magnesium material from supposedly claimed to be from Roswell uh I've had students who shall go unnamed who will Who are have been analyzing this stuff it's engineered at with a level of precision and made of things that we just wouldn't put together layered magnesium oxide with bismuth interlaces I mean I have the material you know we have done all the most advanced analyses you could imagine on them no idea how anybody would make it that piece is about as close to technology as anything I have um the other pieces are kind of like something that was left over this is not this is I mean we have chunks of this stuff if you manag to get hold of this with your resources I can only imagine that what the origin of the materials are I couldn't say but that the government has a lot of stuff and a lot of very interesting things so it makes sense to me that the government might suppress the information that it had collected and suppressed that it had been collecting this information for this reason as part of National Security that these things might be very valuable whether it's uh for military technology or for airpl anything like that just advancing your own industrial base but another thing that I wanted to ask about was what I read about in the the text was that it could produce Mass hysteria or be used as psychological warfare and I I'm wondering what you think about that in connection to National Security well I mean I mean we know through social media today that you can basically lie about anything um and convince people I mean propaganda Works um you know I'm less worried about I maybe in the 1950s you might be worried about you know um hysteria about aliens Etc or something War of the Worlds War of the Worlds exactly exactly what was went through my head um but I I think that today people if it doesn't put food or take food from their table they'll probably pay attention to it for a week but if the government is not running around with its hair on fire they'll probably go on to other things because just the statement that something is here or that you know whatever they are are real um has already been done I mean the government has said I mean I'm not kidding you the government US government has said UAP are real the phenomenon is real there's a report that comes out every year that lists a number of things that just can't be explained so they are by definition UAP they're not identified but they're not praic they're not explainable by anything that we have and so the government has been playing this very interesting kind of almost legalistically lawyerly verbiage game where they say well we have no proof that it's aliens okay well what happens if it's ultraterrestrials are you using the term aliens as a way to hide what it is that it really is because maybe it's bolman brains right um You you go back and you look at everything that they've said they always say we have no proof that it's aliens yeah but you have no proof you at a certain point in time you have to you know you have to use the old um Sherlock Holmes state when everything else is taken off the table even the most unlikely thing is probably the right thing and so you know that's I mean that's not a scientific argument except it is because that's what a lot of the papers in science are all about they're like we've just proven everything we think that it can't be um and so the only thing left is what we think it is so you know at a certain point it's it's it's not up to me to convince anybody of anything in fact I say this I'm not I'm not here to convince anybody I'm just asking people to think and to use your god-given neurons uh to push through the logic of the problem while we're on the topic of the government and uaps there are two broad classes of evidence that they collected that I I don't think that we will talk much about elsewhere in our conversation so I just wanted to flag them and ask about them now and what I have in mind are abductions and animal mutilations and to me these are more they're much more outlandish I would say than claims of just seeing something overhead or something exploding that seem more in the realm of the everyday in a certain sense but the reports often claim that black Mar helicopters were seen around the time of the animal mutilations things like this and so I'm just wondering how you view these two sorts of events or you know they're just data I really um I think for the same reasons that you feel it's almost off topic or it's like it's it's so extraordinary um to imagine that you know something like that might be going on I mean I can certainly create a world where it happens in me um but I as a scientist I don't feel it's my responsibility nor prudent to go there until I address some of the more addressable right issues like medical harm I can take the same MRI of the same person and show that the same thing H that that thing happened to them and I can compare it to hundred other people where they claim the same thing I can take materials I can take a piece of that material Lop it off give it to another sign and they can find out the same thing that I did you take the ocama mummy somebody take another piece of that skin do the same study and prove me right or wrong which is you know we're now 11 or 12 years after that and the people who claim that I was a fraud uh they have yet to disprove me so I dare them I dare them um and he He Who Shall Not Be Named know who I'm who I'm talking about um so because I know I'm right so it's like we we have to address add the things that are scientifically address I can't address right now telepathy other people might be able to I can't address claimed abductions or you know I had I had a government agency come to me you know in the last year asking for my help with claimed implants so I want nothing to do with them and again I appreciate I really do appreciate the intellectual honesty here because the interview would be much more exciting if you if you told me that oh you'd been abducted oh your pet was mated and I would no and I haven't and and I guess luckily um or whatever but it's um no and and you know I'm going to get probably you know Savaged for saying it um because there's the whole so-called experiencer community and abduction Community who want me to address it and it's just I can't address I cannot address it because it's a psychological issue first of all not that they have a mental health issue it's just it's an anecdote and I need something which has now what's fascinating about it are the commonalities of the stories so that has and Rings an element of Truth throughout the whole issue um but it's you know again it's not it's not scientifically in my purview and second I can't do everything I know what I can do uh and so I do it now um John Mack the Harvard uh psychiatrist uh addressed it you know back in the day and you know he basically I I he's dead now unfortunately but he I I I use his rubric of I don't know if what they're saying is right but I know they believe that what they're saying is right and you know at the very least we need to address address the you know the the trauma Associated first with what they claimed happen to them and second the trauma of family friends and Society not believing what it is that they're saying so um those are separate but related obviously with given given what you've just said I think that this is a good time then to turn to the things you've had your hands on uh figuratively and and really so let's return to what you started off with quite early in the conversation which is some of these Pilots whose whose brains you you scanned and so can we start from the beginning with with how you got tapped to do this um well again it was uh it was because I had well what they were doing the the government was doing uh were full medical evaluations of these individuals and one of the evaluations they wanted was a blood analysis and so they asked around and they said who makes the best blood anal who does the best blood analysis oh you need to go talk to this guy nol in the Stanford he invented this device called Blah Blah Blah co-invented the actual inventor gets mad at me when I say I invented it he invented it Scott you invented it Scott Tanner University of Toronto great guy um he brought it to me and then I turned it into an Immunology tool um and so they said go talk to this guy he's got this all worked up um and operating and and and so that's how I got officially brought in and because I didn't run them out of the room screaming uh and I returned their phone calls afterwards the government the government um after we started now I advise several groups um you know and and not because I'm this I'm certainly not the kind of physicist that they need um and they have better physicists working on the problem literally uh of the the in in the in the so-called Legacy program but working on the health issues or oning on propulsion and that stuff um and so you know I um one of the things I think is interesting about understanding uh what might happen to people if they get too close to some object radiating some strange effect is it tells you something about the engine you know I mean if you stand behind a fighter jet while it's about to take off on on a you know on an aircraft carrier you're going to have scorched Burns across your body now if I didn't know that the fighter jet existed I could at least understand that heat was involved in the production of the propulsion of the object that hurt them so there's value to understanding what happened to these people but there was an interesting side observation that we made uh in looking at all of the brains of these individuals which was we noticed a common feature in their basil ganglia at the head of the cod8 paman uh of a neural density cluster um that was not seen in Everyday People and what eventually we found that it was was it's an indication of a form of intelligence um and intuition it's actually this area of the brain is involved in intuition so when we figured out that this was intuition it turned out that the medical community at large was also finding out that this was intuition and the reason why it was concentrated in this group of individuals is because they're high functioning individuals who need to work and use their intuition to operate in the environment in which they do so it's nothing to do with UFOs or uaps it had to do with um just their level of required functionality it's interesting because it's the area of the brain that lights up when you have an intuitive leap um now that's kind of the value of basic research we didn't go looking for that but we found that and then I later did a study with another group at Harvard with brains of normals autistics and schizophrenics as bookends to normal uh to show that in fact this feature was directly involved with intelligence we sh because we had full medical and testing evaluations on all these people but that there were alterations in the CATE paman of these individual of the schizoid SK schizophrenic sorry or uh autistics that we could actually create a pattern match for uh and that the card was involved in this now why I find that interesting is that as an from an intelligence standpoint is you know I know several uh functional autistics who are very very very smart um but as we know autistics often have social uh um interaction disorders uh but we learned something about the codap paman there and on the on the flip side schizophrenics you know maybe a lot of what the SCH maybe a lot of the people who are in mental health institutions or schizophrenics um maybe it's because they're just so creative that their brains Go off into into fantasy lands uh but it's part of that Spectrum but that was a and we published three papers on this and that came because of the medical study that I did with the government at the time so and we contributed to the medical literature unexpectedly and it had nothing to do with UAP now some of these Pilots I know that you do not want and I totally understand why you do not want to talk about particular people but I'm wondering if just so that I and our audience can get a better understanding of what these Pilots claim to have experienced can you give a sort of generic account of of no because the number of people are so small that when I do those individuals think I'm talking about them and they and their family write me nasty emails okay but and and and they are um they are justified in doing so okay you know when they first did it because I didn't realize that it was resurfacing trauma that they had gone through then maybe I can quite broadly say that what we're talking about is somebody perhaps flying a jet and they have some experience like yours where something passes nearby they have no way of accounting for what it is uh and then they feel very different and hurt afterwards right or well or they feel um Burns or they feel like they get confused you know I mean okay let's again go back to this notion of how these things might move so what happens if they are Warp Waring space and time what happens if I passed a warp SpaceTime You Know Field across you it you know if it doesn't scramble you into putting you know maybe it makes you feel a little disoriented and so if you're flying a jet uh and need to make split-second decisions uh and you're disoriented uh you know it's a Flight Risk uh for you and Reporting it is a Flight Risk it's actually a career risk cuzz if you had an event like that happened and suddenly you're disoriented you know it it might be well within the rights of the flight doctor to say all right we're taking you off because we don't know what it is we don't know that you're not going to just have this event happen again and has nothing to do with UFOs or UAP it's just you're just you had some sort of a a break psych psychological break of some kind but some of these people they did experience Burns they did have scarring in their brains has anything that you have observed in these patients either challenged your understanding of of your conventional understanding of physics or biology no it's it's I mean the the white matter disease that we saw most frequently in the brain um was random in other words not focused uh meaning that these people were exposed to a field effect that depending upon where they were and relative to whatever happened and then they had these white matter disease in their head in their brain um looks like multiple sosis um and uh you know the when we first saw saw briefly back to that card pment thing that was the commonality and we thought we'd found something we found it was just sort of a side observation that had nothing to do with the the uh the damage per se um it just means that people like that it's kind of like tall people are more likely to bump their head you know on a you know on a short doorway you know so you have a lot of tall people you know if you lot if a lot if you have a lot of basketball players going through normal doorways you're going to have a lot of people with bumped heads it's kind of that effect but is there is there something that you have taken from these experience es that has raised your Credence that these UAP are extraterrestrial in orent no just that they're operating with um field effects I mean yes I mean that whatever it is some you know and this it's a very small number mind you because I told you like 80 to 90 of them were simply Havana syndrome um that these things seem to be operating with field effects uh that are um in congruous with any kind of weapon that you or I know about right I mean how do I reach inside of your brain and cause except with say a microwave gun uh or I stick your head in a microwave and and cook parts of your brain right um you know I mean these energy weapons you know frankly exist and you know I know people who says we were developing them back in the 80s I mean you probably have read in the newspapers about PE the these uh guns they have that can make you feel like your skin is burning but your skin is not burning I did not know about yeah that's true yeah go look it up um and so it's just a microwave emitter of some kind there there's nothing magic about it the uh so um it's just technology that even we have um so I mean that's the only thing is how did it happen um but because again it's not repeatable and because I certainly don't want to do any kind of animal experiments that mimic it because I I just think it would be cruel uh to animals but I mean I wouldn't recommend for instance you going and camping out in your local you know uh Transformer you know down at the at the bottom of your Hill in some one of those big Transformer things cu the electromagnetic fields there would would kill you I mean people are worried about cell phone towers affect and causing brain cancer so they nobody should be surprised that if an object is moving around with strong electromagnetic fields uh as part of its propulsion source that it might cause damage to somebody who should be surprised you mentioned earlier that you have a top secret clearance and I think you said you've worked or been tapped by the CIA and what I'm wondering is is that in connection to this work or in connection to other projects that you've been involved with with the government that's why it's called TS top secret so other things that you can't talk about can't talk about it no okay no I mean I don't have I I mean I'll just be I'll just be honest I do not have a level of clearance that allows me to walk into you know Hangar 10 at Area 51 or anything like that nothing like that uh but I have a kind of clearance that allows people to talk to me you know in a secure information facility or from a secure information facility and they can they feel that if they tell me something I am bound by the rules of a TS and I know nothing and I've said nothing here that would ever breach anything like that well maybe you have information about these incidents that you can't share which I would understand but to me the most interesting news about uaps that has come out in the last years that I'm aware of obviously because I'm interested in is the the Tic Tac footage just what were the in in what was the the sequence of events and how was the government involved um the well the Tic Tac incident was related to uh an event that occurred um off the coast around one of our aircraft carriers nuclear aircraft carriers um which is important which is important um and it was observed by this guy by the name of David fraver uh who was a pilot a top pilot uh who led a squadron um and he said he had never seen anything like it before the way it maneuvered uh over the ocean uh and how it moved he the one who basically said it you know from our radar it went from from surface of this ocean to above you know into the you know into near space instantly uh and there were multiple corroborating radar uh signatures that you know basically said what he was saying was apparently true um and that interest in L it uh when he was told to go to his contact Point um after the thing disappeared uh where they were sort of rendevu the with the Squadron um it was already there that's interesting it knew to be there so what did it do how did it know to go there cuz even they didn't know where they were going until they were told to go there did it reach into the computer systems and read the computer systems and say look at what I can do did it read somebody's mind I don't know but that's the data so again it's up to the audience if if if if you don't believe the data then I have nothing to say to you but if you at least will accept that the data might be true the onus is not on me only to come up with an explanation if you don't you I mean that the fun of science is to use your brain to come up with a reason why and and it's a collective effort it's not just I I'm not here to bat answers back and forth with people and am I correct that there have been it's not just this one pilot you mentioned but many people who have well he and his co-pilot saw it um the person sitting behind them uh and you know another event uh with Ryan Graves on the East Coast uh which was the um two other uh events that occurred where they didn't just see one object they saw a fleet of them and they saw them over several weeks maneuvering and doing things that were not supposed to be able to do moving Against the Wind and just being stationary uh and uh then just zipping off and Ryan um was so convinced that he said this is a flight safety issue not just for the military but also for Aviation just general aviation um so he started a uh a501 C3 um called The Americans for safe airospace and worked with the American um Association of aerospace engineers uh to get it as part of their 50,000 strong uh Engineering Group you know so I mean you have to understand that when like I set up the soul Foundation or other people set up these other organizations they're doing it out of a conviction of what it is that they have experienced and they're saying look I'm going to put my money and time and reputation and efforts where my mouth is uh and so you know I I it doesn't matter to me if other people will disparage uh it's because I'm not here to I'm not here to make them happy I'm here to make me happy and these objects that you mentioned they were detected by radar were there other ways in which they were perceived as well well they were seen by by human eyes by eye and detected by radar at the same time and what's interesting is the reason why suddenly so in the last decade or two um and Es and especially around these incidents we had upgraded our radar capabilities we' come up cuz you know we developed stealth the Russians develop stealth we develop anti- stealth radar Etc so there's this back and forth of upgrading your capability and it was when we upgraded our capabilities suddenly the stuff was like everywhere huh that's fascinating yeah it correlated with our increased technical capability so this I think is very puzzling for the skeptic because the skeptic has to acknowledge well well the the first I'm a skeptic by the way yeah I I mean that's what the okama incident tells us but what the skeptic might say pseudos skeptic pseudos skeptic if it's just radar you can say there is a a technological glitch but as soon as you have multiple modes of detection that are disconnected human eyes radar then well and Flur so um infrared is it was the other simultaneous one that was used to to see some of these things mhm and so so if you have three simultaneous modalities of detection science science then what do you think are the plausible competing explanations for what these Tic Tacs were and then maybe we can rule some out but what's plausible one of the well so one of the things that happened at the end of that Tic Tac event and the others is that some basically people showed up on the ship helicoptered in not military came in said give us all the data we want the data we're that's it we're going with it and then and that's it and the and the data disappeared literally uh and didn't come out again until Lou alzando and Chris melon basically brought it out of the Pentagon I actually was uh at a bar uh in Crystal City overlooking the Pentagon with l alzando two weeks before the New York Times videos came out and he showed that stuff to me oh wow so that was pretty cool my hair stood on end I holy Jes yeah um and uh so i' I've known him since since way back uh and another man who's like why should he ruin his career for this because he just thinks it's important and for our listeners who don't know who he is Lou alzando um worked in general Madison's office in the Department of Defense uh a decorated Counter Intelligence agent uh his his day job was doing some really important stuff around terrorism um and this um sort of assignment of looking into UAP was given to him as a side as a side gig uh until he got again into the data so deep that he was like this is important and he was being ignored by his you know his superiors and that was when he resigned and put out a public statement and then he worked behind the scenes uh to get the videos out mhm no tenure in the US government no tenure in the US government and disparaged and they went after him um same thing happened to David grush another very close friend of mine uh you know who was tasked by Congress to go into the uh to basically prove or disprove that there were programs related to UAP and he found swaths of evidence and then was uh attacked by um a number of people within the government uh They removed his security clearances he got them back because he actually got um one of the um heads of uh one of the top judicial administrators uh for um defense intelligence agency to basically protect him uh and to argue his case and he won uh at least so far um but then some people from apparently the government leaked his medical reports on and to try to should try to basically disparage his mental health um so why do these people go to all of these lengths to hurt the ones who are coming out if there's nothing there so what do they you know what are they protecting and every time they do something like that that just gets who ever doing this into deeper doodoo right I mean it's just uh you know another reason why um amnesty is required I mean I was I was I mean I've said this publicly so I'll say it again uh here I was personally threatened because I knew of a conversation that happened somewhere um and I alluded to it in the most elliptical fashion uh on a public broadcast literally a couple of days later I get a phone call from a friend saying XYZ at the White House is really pissed at you and you should not ever say anything like that again because Title 18 applies I said what does that mean lethal force is operable I'm not kidding you oh my God I put down the phone and I I I honestly I I I I I nearly broke down in tears and I called a reporter friend of mine and to just basically report it to them to say this just happened to me I was just threatened be because they knew what I was saying nobody else would have known what it was was I was what I was alluding to regardless of whether or not it's aliens uh if you're if if they think you're disclosing their secure information you might not well I wasn't supposed to know it because I heard it from a friend who wasn't supposed to tell me in the first place but yeah anyway okay well but okay returning though to the Tic Tacs because because I derailed you about elzando what do you think given this evidence that we have are the competing hypotheses to account for it so one of the compe in hypothesis is that it's a um that uh it was a um a Blue on Blue it's called um Counter Intelligence program where what the let's say the uh signal analysis people did was they inserted the information into the information systems of the radar to make it look like this happened um which is perfectly valid basically it was basically can can the idea being that if we could do it to us then we can do it to the Russians right if we could reach into their systems and make them think that they're seeing things that aren't there right and we can convince the most expert observers uh in the you know in our military that these things are there so it was a test in a sense it was a test so and and that you know so you could look at the the Men in Black showing up on the and taking all the records of saying well we're going to remove the evidence that you so you won't figure out that we did this so that's out there as an idea and and you have to keep it on the table um the only thing that counters that is that there were eyes on right so now you have to imagine that somebody had a holographic projector that made it look like there was something there if we had holographic projectors like that why are we going to the movies anymore you know working with 2D you know so there's no holographic projectors that can reach across miles and make it look like something is there so you can imagine that you could insert you know false information into into radar systems uh but so that's that's the alter that's a reasonable alter so hypothesis one maybe is that it was an internal government te military test that probably got out of hand if it became New York Times front page news that was probably not intended yeah and so I mean you have to then say well that the videos were um that they had were faked even though the guy was tracking it with the radar system was able to get final lock on and wasn't able to get lock on for a while and you know if it were if it were as some people claim it was just a it was a seagull this is Mick West poor Mick I um you know it was a seagull well r can trct seagulls right Radars don't like not lock on to to you know conventional terrestrial objects so whatever it was was was slippery from a a radar locking standpoint um you know it wasn't moving at that time so fast that uh it could be called anomalous I think they finally figured out it was maybe moving at about 180 M hour but um you know it was certainly it had no flight surfaces it had no uh this is the Tic Tac it had no heat signature um so what moves with no wings and no heat signature what what moves come on what nothing may maybe a balloon right but a balloon doesn't move in a straight line at 180 miles hour so what is it so you're again you're left with you know and and when there's eyes on as well as the radar and the video of it you know you're you you kind of have to believe what the pilot said that they saw what do so if we then assume this that the pilots did see what they saw what they claimed to have what they claimed to have seen what are your hypotheses for accounting for what they saw well the AL the other alternative is that it is a a US program that we do have motility approaches that have nothing to do with aliens or ETS or ultraterrestrials that we have figured out how to move electromagnetically and so you could I mean I'm perfectly fine if that were the case I'd be upset that you know that I still have to get on a United airplane and deal with economy class you know and I couldn't just be there you know quickly um you know so um but again you know know I understand from a military standpoint if such a thing were created that um or already available that they'd want to keep it secret but then then you have to explain why this stuff was showing up in the 1950s and the 1960s well before you could even imagine any kind of electromagnetic propulsion systems were understood available or implemented when we were still busy we were still busy figuring out how jet engines worked so to to wrap up this discussion of the Tic Tacs what does all of the evidence and all of your thinking about the evidence lead you to conclude is really going on here that there's a technology that we don't understand simple you know there's another one of over mosul um Iraq uh of a a basically a two foot sphere moving I mean just pictures of it and then the head of Arrow Sean catrick who's you know who's reviled amongst the UAP Community because he's you know he's he's so anti- UAP even though he was supposedly the head of the group that um has said that we don't know what this stuff is even he came out publicly and said we have many videos and incidents of these metal spheres with no obvious propulsion moving across our military sites as if they're you know some sort of surveillance well the the tomb main s of Bodies of Evidence we've discussed are these Tic Tacs and then the anomalous health events that that you were a part of or health phenomena that you were a part of and in both cases what they lead you to conclude is that there exist Advanced Technologies that we just don't know how to account for but that doesn't yet get us all the way to your conviction that aliens are or have been here and so and nor should it right and I think that's that's good that's healthy what is it though what is the Smoking Gun for you that tells you that even though you can't pull out the laser gun right now that you believe that aliens are or have been here I mean for for me it's it's really the interpersonal interactions and my just summary of uh knowledge of the people that I work with um and the things that they say I mean that's that's it that's the only thing that that keeps me motivated at this point I mean my history of what happened to me as a as a boy is almost irrelevant because maybe there's something unexplained that is explainable that that explains what it is that I saw that was an alien that was an alien I mean it could be I just don't know right um so the the only exit I have from the the problem is let's just go and see if we can get better pictures more scientifically validated and if we can call one of these things to show up that brings us to skywatcher and you mentioned it at the beginning of our conversation but let's start from the beginning with that what is skywatcher and what prompted it so skywatcher is a um uh uh a donor funded group uh from a couple of um High Networth individuals uh to collect information and I'll talk about what has been public because I'm not authorized to talk about what they're you know they're they're doing so we I mean I'm I'm part of the group uh so I have to be careful that we've all agreed but so what's what's public is what we did so we uh had um you know basically in the middle of of of a open space um the numbers of uh cameras and sensors as well as uh electronic calling capabilities or electronic signaling capabilities I say it that way um with individuals who had been involved in a claimed crash retrieval who had done retrievals for the US government the 99% of which had nothing to do with UAP just US Air Force or DOD um objects right that they were then tasked that crashed somewhere and they were tasked to go pick up um and so one of those individuals is Jake Barber who uh is his his story is already out there and his record has been micro examined by the the Skeptics and they can find nothing wrong with his story um and his credentials and who he is and what he's done uh and so they have openly claimed that they were involved with these kinds of things and they know how to do it uh they know what kind of helicopters are required they know what they know the operation behind the scenes of how it is that an object is picked up and then transported secretly to another place whether it's UAP or not and when I was informed of this and I sat there listening I'm like wow that's that's that's impressive organization of what they need to do I mean it wasn't it was like I didn't I couldn't even imagine I would not have imagined that so you know the story behind the operations of what the US government does to collect its own uh you know uh instrumentation materials and things uh is impressive enough and so but because of that experience they were exactly the right people to get together to see if we could operationalize this uh for um data collection or materials collection there's no intent by the way to shoot anything out of the sky because there there's a little bit of a story out there that this is what this is what has gone on in the past that we shoot them out of the sky and that actually supposedly is true but we have no intent to do anything like that and I told them when they asked me to get involved was that if you're going to shoot anything down I want nothing to do with it because you know just from an Ethics point of view um sort of a kind of a fun fun thing but you know uh well not fun but if you shoot down something and there's somebody in it there's a something in it and it's intelligent well by human law I'm not subject to anybody's crime because I didn't kill a human we only care about whether we killed human but from an ethic standpoint you know it's just as bad so I want I told myself have nothing to do with anything like that also if you just want to Grant the assumption that there is some sort of alien in a craft like this shooting at it seems like an absolutely terrible idea it sounds like Yeah well yeah I mean the people who I know who even uh paint as they say they they they paint the objects with a radar reflection they get basically back a uh a wash of um anti- signal that either shuts down their own stuff um or basically makes their stuff go haywire and I and and I know to the audience in my every that sounds crazy but I don't care I'm just repeating the the stories that are there and again it's part of the data and if it's true you figure out a universe or a technology that's capable of such Feats and we spoke quite briefly before this about some of the things that skywash may be doing but that you can't talk about on the air but is there anything you can say about contact that has been made the the intent is to attempt a form of contact MH yeah I mean that's that's an open that's an open comment and whether whether it happens or not I mean that's the experiment um you know and a significant amount of resources is being put towards it and it's being done in coordination uh and and we intend to coordinate this with the government you know we were actually out you know all all the Drone stuff that was going on in uh New Jersey uh last fall well could you let's assume that I don't could you share so there were well there were drones seen all up and down the Eastern Seaboard and people had pictures of them and claimed drone incursions over airports and over military establishment you know it was all over the news you know and if people wanted to they just go look it up we saw that as an opportunity to test our uh capabilities and so we were out there uh collecting information and to be honest the majority of the things that we saw were conventional drones of some sort um there were a few things that were unexplained and moved in anomalous ways but the majority of the stuff seem to be some somebody's drones do you think that means that some people might have just heard the news and then sent up their own drones no these were these were when you have drones coming in from the ocean uh that uh and then returning to the ocean uh and and are trailing Coast Guard boats for Miles uh that's not you know hobbyist drones mhm and again my guess is that this is an instance where the evidence leads you to the conclusion that there are Advanced Technologies that we cannot account for but you can't rule out there being either you know Chinese or Russian or something to that effect instead of they being alen I mean the the Drone stuff on the East Coast I really don't know what it is but they they still don't have a full explanation for it in fact there was an interview on 60 Minutes just the other night uh by the head of like one of the fa the FAA or something and said we just we don't know what it was um you know but that doesn't mean that it was it was aliens uh but um but we tested our capabilities there it was one of the first um outings that we did well it is really distressing how much stuff is out there that is labeled anomalous by these heads of very important organizations for transportation and National Security yeah well it just it well it tells you how limited are um sensor systems really are which actually tells you how open we are to attack from you know Bad actors you know State actors you know I mean it it tells you that you know China or Russia could show up offshore with a an apparent tanker but it's full of drones and could completely you know send the you know the coastline into into a frenzy uh because I mean you've I mean I I think everybody has probably seen these drone light shows of what they can do with you know hundreds of drones uh so imagine if each of them were strapped with a bomb without any further Ado I would like to turn to the soul Foundation it's come up a few times in this conversation but but before we talk about all of the many things that it is doing just what is the so foundation and why did you help start it so it's a think tank uh that I started with uh Peter skafish who's a philosopher uh and Anthropologist uh and David grush who we all know testified in front of Congress about the reverse engineering programs that he had discovered about um and the the idea actually sort of germinated with my frustration um dealing with the public mostly frankly originally through Twitter uh where I sort of became a celebrity uh making commentary on on this stuff and and seeing how the public were talking about the issue the matter and and realizing that there was a a level of professionalism that needed to be brought to the table if we were ever going to make any positive movement you know the arguments on Twitter like on Facebook that you know comment I it was just ridiculous it was it was and then you had the pseudos Skeptics and the Skeptics and the you know all these people and they were all it was just a tangled mess and I remember s i remember tweeting once saying that you know if you guys don't get your act together no one's you're never going to progress this anyway where this needs to be professionalized um and that kind of lit a light bulb in my head and you know uh a a friend who shall go unnamed but is all he said why don't you start a an Institute a 501c3 to to create um an atmosphere and a room essentially within which other scientists can come and talk about this credibly and so you know it's really about creating a fence line uh and a landscape where scientists can come and do exactly what it is that I've been telling you I do on my day job of your hypotheses ideas you won't be left out of the room let's hear it um and in so doing what happened was suddenly people came out of the woodwork uh who have always had an interest but have felt like there was no place where they could do it that didn't involve tinfoil hats and crazy stories or you know you know people who are let's say on the on the edge um and scientists doctors lawyers military government people all over the place uh and we had our first symposia actually here at Stanford uh here in the in the engineering quad uh and we had about probably 200 people there for that um and just it was remarkable we had and it was a series of talks about credible issues like what does it mean for you know for satellite deployment that there might be things that are moving around that might get in their way what does it mean for Aviation and security what what does what does data analysis mean in this area Uh Kevin n talked about well what does it mean if these things are moving at these speeds what kind of energy is are required what what do they have to you know why is there no um why is there no sound barrier uh issues with these things why do you not hear Sonic booms um you know what would have to what would have to be to explain the lack of a sonic boom and and it's it's when you have a bunch of Engineers with these kinds of problems or scientists or it it becomes it becomes a fascinating issue I mean one of the things that I raised was patents patents what does that to do with anything you know patents are about protecting ideas if you and so one of the tenets of of a patent is you can't patent something if it's already been invented well if an if you are reverse engineering alien technology can you patent it by one view of the rules you cannot not because somebody invented it yeah but they're not human so if they're not human can you patent some you know so all of these kinds of legal issues this is where the lawyers and when I kind of tweeted that out at one point it became like one of the most celebrated threads I ever created because suddenly lawyers came in had nothing to do with UAP who just found the thought problem fascinating okay well no maybe you could do this or this is how you could do that you know they were finding Poes in the rules um and so that was the impetus and so luckily there are um any of a number of high net worth donors uh who were willing to step forward you know we've created forums now we have some online forums Etc and it's all just about legitimizing the discussion it's not about proving anything now of course there are people within the organizations and the suborganizations and the umbrella that we've created who are manifestly more sure about any of this than I am and go further than I would ever say but I'm there just to say look if you want to convince a scientist and science is one of the legs uh on which we need to stand for this it's science government and the people you know the people look to both government looks to the science science needs to be believed by the by the lay people so we need to follow the rules and the rules mean mean you don't talk about data until you've had it reviewed you don't publish anything with a news report you publish it in a peer-reviewed paper after careful analysis so just creating and restating what to me is the obvious uh is the objective of this to now and now you the organization is you know much larger than it was before uh has a funding base we have uh programs that we're doing we got we get invited to you know people say oh it's ruined your career well it might have ruined my career but I've had a lot more fun that I ever would have had being just a regular everyday scientist you know who gets to go you know South by Southwest I got to go brief uh Canadian Parliament on this on UAP right I met with the heads of each of the of the parties uh except the separatists they weren't interested um so uh you know I get invited to you know fun fancy uh parties to tell people the stories uh and again it's it's partly as a fundraiser but also to engage the public uh in a way that it is was not being served now most people or maybe I'm just speaking for myself here they associate think tanks with politics and government and when I first looked at the at the soul Foundation I was surprised to see just how much of your efforts are going toward interface with the government and so let me just ask what are the white papers that the soul Foundation is currently producing well we put out a white paper on for instance the United Kingdom and its involvement and actually somebody from I think it was the bank of England she wrote it uh we've put out a white paper on Usos written by Lieutenant galade who is the head of the basically the NOA the the weather agency he was the lead weather you know and he he has said he's seen evidence of Usos so he wrote something on that we've had one on satellites uh we've had one on religion you know I mean the the other Peg of all of this is religion I mean what so we had a Catholic Theologian WR about you know aliens and it's very easy for religions to talk about aliens because they have Angels and Demons right so those are non-human intelligence uh so you know the the Catholic church has a long history in this matter uh being asked many times to to comment on Aliens and and are aliens children of God why not it actually makes God greater in my view to have you know Kingdom over many intelligences so you know those are the kinds of papers because and the reason why you put these papers out it's the as you know when you write a paper uh that's published in a journal you reference it and the reference is saying I don't need to prove this or if you want to know more about this go to here because here I've already done it you build it on a foundation so I worked as a postto um with this guy by the name of David Baltimore in MIT a nobbel prize winner for retroviral uh reverse transcript a um and I mean obviously a brilliant man and uh I remember having a conversation with him about how I kept on hearing the word correlation in our group meetings and this correlates with that and I was like why is the word correlation being used so much and I remember him just sort of looking at me I realized sort of like the gulf between him and I in terms of you know what he and he said it's it's like this Garrett an idea by itself with no connection to anything else is a phenomena interesting choice of word is a phenomena but if you can link it to prior knowledge you now stand on the hill of History right interesting yeah so you've connected it to all prior human knowledge by finding at least a correlation if not a causality and so that's where UAP still is it's still mostly a phenomenon for most people now maybe some people know more about it and that it is no longer just a phenomena but it is something that has a correlation or a causality associated with it so that's really what um that's really what I'm trying to do is is take those learnings from my mentors of how it is that you do good science you do it openly you do it properly you share you you you submit to the process of getting information out properly um and by transmitting that to others and holding that line you create an ethic through which I think the field itself can go forward or prove inevitably that it's all wrong I would frankly and I I've said this before I would love it if it were proven indubitably that it was all a fantasy and it was wrong I can go back to my day job fully committed uh and not uh distracted I'd like to ask about some specific items in the white papers and the research agenda just because many things came up in my investigation of the Soul Foundation that I'd never considered before one was and that's the point is to make it obvious to people who have some you know some sense of wonder that hey oh there's something more Beyond this MH it's not just you know Spielberg's aliens or ET yeah here is just one I mean there there are a number connected to the military but here is one I think there was a white paper about why the investigation into uaps is so important for and implementing policies surrounding them within governments is so important for preventing potential nuclear war mhm why is that because um if an object were and this was actually there was an event like this um if an OB if an object or let's say a fleet of objects is moving towards the United States that would otherwise be interpreted as ballistic missiles that could you know that might trigger a response um you want to know obviously right um and so you know you don't I mean I had a conversation with um a government group just in the last month um around just the thought of you know if if you were a um if you were Russia or if you were China and you wanted to use the stigma of UFO to get a craft into the United States or a bomb or a surveillance object into the United States you'd make it look like you'd basically cover it with with a with something look made it look like a UFO flying saucer and it you know it was still conventionally driven by propellers for all you care but you'd make it look like that because everybody would ignore it they're like I don't want to see that right so you know it's and and in fact you know you've probably heard about the Chinese balloons mhm right they were basically using uh our lack of attention to detail uh and it was this is interesting my your audience probably doesn't know about it it was only because we had been banging on Norad and the others to open up the aperture of their detection system that those balloons were found by we you mean by we meaning the UAP community all yeah that's fascinating so so here's what here's what happens this is fascinating our sensor systems are so sophisticated that they collect so much information that you have to filter it out right so what they do is they the filters only look for things that we know about and everything else that moves anomalously is filtered out because that couldn't possibly be a missile so all the information that actually is UAP is just discarded literally it's it's not even collected cuz they just are interested cuz they they're scanning the skies and they can only look uh and spend so much time looking for the things that they know what that does though obviously is the unintended consequence of that is if somebody comes up with something even con relatively conventional but Falls outside of our parameters of what it is that the data we're collecting they could slip in anything through the screen H that's frightening yeah you know well while we're on the topic of the military I I I don't know if I should give his name the French pronunciation or the American pronunciation but rear Admiral Tim gadet that's who I was talking about before galade galade galade he penned a white paper an interesting one about trans medium crafts right and so one what are trans medium crafts and why should we be very interested in them he says undue attention has been paid to these sorts of craft we've been looking toward the sky right so one of the features of um so there are several uh features of what we consider to be UAP and one of them is no flight surfaces unconventional movement trans medium travel so meaning something that can go from water to air to space we have nothing like that um we have stuff that can go from space base to Air but uh not back again immediately right so something that can at will bounce amongst the three zones that we conventionally uh um actually assign military value to so space we now have a space command right we have a space guard I think that's what they're called Guardians uh we have an Air Force we have a Navy right so those three zones uh and we have an army so things you know on the on land um but these objects seem to just move willy-nilly between all three of them we have nothing like that the last time I saw anything that moved from Earth from water to Air and back was uh an old TV show called Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and they had this giant submarine and they had a they had something that basically looked like a UFO that came out and went back and forth I mean it's all fantasy all science fiction so we don't have anything like that so again how do you you know and and some of these Usos are claimed to move underwater at several hundred miles an hour you have nothing like that nothing like that uh without that doesn't produce cavitation you know cavitation is right um so uh you know no sound but you can see it with sonar um so H how what kind of propellant Works under the water and equally well in the air what kind of motility or Mobility force allows you to do that well the one thing that does is the is this this so-called warp bubble that allows you to basically ignore material water which kind of makes you think maybe this stuff could even and go through mountains well one last aspect of the research agenda that I think you're probably best suited to speak about involves health and uaps and it is no matter what you think about covid I think pretty much everybody thinks that the government did not respond very well to it and the question then is how ought we to deal with the possibility of UA PS that could have adverse Health consequences and impacts for people yeah I'm not so worried about it and apart from like like I said getting behind their propulsion system or getting too close to them while they're while they're moving um I'm not worried about them from either a biological threat so you're not worried about pathogens or anything like that no I mean I I mean look whatever it is has been here long enough to uh if there's anything here alleged alleged alleged uh to you know it it it has no cross species capability right I mean it's the rare event that a a bat virus like some of the Ebola seems to be this Reservoir seems to be in bats and my lab studied Ebola for a while um or um monkey uh transmission or now Aven flu right transmits across species it's very rare um so something from another planet who even knows if it's you know uses the same DNA bases that we do its metabolism would be so different uh I'm just it just I mean sure could it be yeah am I worried no can I do anything about it no so I'm even less worried Avi lobe has has come up on in this conversation I think once or twice he was a guest on the show a year or two ago but for our listeners who don't know who he is who is AI and what how would you summarize his impacts on the field because he's he's a an important member on he's an adviser he's a board on he's a he's an adviser on one of the advisory boards yeah um so AI lob uh was the chairman of the Department of astronomy at Harvard uh he's not the chairman anymore but he's still in the department and he uh was I think the is best known uh at least publicly for his observation of the uma uma event which was a an Interstellar meteor rock that seemed to come through on a trajectory uh from another solar system uh and uh as it exited our solar system it was moving pretty fast obviously uh it was it was seen to move I mean through you know the telescope um it seemed to speed up um and the you know what speeds up on its way out of a solar system um it it was clearly one of the first in it was I think the first Interstellar meteor ever seen um and so one of the hypotheses that um and his postto put on the table was that maybe it was um an Interstellar probe from another civilization that was making a flyby and as it left our um our uh solar system It sped up and went off in another direction to the next solar system it was just an idea it he got absolutely Savaged by the astronomy Community how dare you say anything like that and if you know obvious uh he's you know he's an intellectually pretty uh astute and complete guy he's very sharp very sharp and um he was you know in the same way and this is sort of I think we had a kindred spirit he and I were I mean he just had this righteous indignation that how dare you say that I can't talk about this in fact before he knew me I sent him an email could win all this controversy and the email was just welcome to the club very good I I I don't know if he ever he never he never wrote back at the time and um because I think he was too busy like protecting himself from his otherwise you know col colleagues um but you know he took the same approach that I did he said okay well if the stuff is here we have the f kinds of things that we can do to collect data on them here's the telescopes we make here's The Radars we can make so he raised money he built an observatory on the top of the uh Harvard astronomy uh building which I've been to uh and then he's raised money for putting other ones around the United States to just collect the data and and that's it you know but he has an amazing what I don't have he has an amazing administr creative capability where he can energize he's energized a group of probably about 100 150 uh scientists volunteers to write computer programs build the instruments design the instruments all of this all for free you know all basically on a on a Sho string um but this the Galileo project the Galileo project yeah I'm part of the Galileo project I haven't been I haven't been on enough of the um of their weekly um meetings I've had too many other things going on um but AI doesn't need me when when the aliens land or material shows up but then you know he got interested in another CL another thing that appeared to be a uh an Interstellar object um that actually came into Earth's atmosphere and exploded down in the South Pacific probably know about this where he went and collected CLA you know nodules uh from the bottom of the ocean and developed a whole program around that showed you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't what some scientists said it was volcanic ash or something like that he showed that look you know for all intents and purposes this came from a meteor you know doesn't mean that it was a alien meteor but it was a it was an it had all the characteristics that you would expect of an Interstellar meteor and I think he's planning on going next summer to look for bigger chunks of it rather than just the little nodules so so you know he's he's putting his money where his mouth is he's he's already been chairman of astronomy and he's a dark matter specialist he's reached the top of his career he writes papers like there's no nobody I mean I I'm kind of envious of the physicists mathematicians they can write a paper and a proof and get it published in a week you know I have to do three years of research uh and then go through six months of review with a paper before it can get out I mean I still have 400 papers but you know it uh you know I think avi's up around 900 or so so um you know he's just a machine and I love him for it and so he's kind of like you know Harvard and Stanford the two book ends of uh you know the only other one we would love I'd love to get somebody at at MIT those the technological universities that stand a top the Heap and so if you've got people like that saying there's something worth looking at maybe you should at least listen for more than a minute the other person very involved in the soul Foundation that I wanted to ask about because he's another huge name in this field and he's come up on the show is jacqu valet and just again summary for for our listeners who aren't familiar with with him who is he and what role has he played in this community over the last many years well uh first he's my principal Mentor in all of this in teaching me how to think about it and giving me a framework and sort of rescuing me from the um from the Wilds of the internet and all of the stories of you know that people think and saying no here's this no you can't think no so he's been my mentor for easily the last 12 years I mean I just he's I'm in awe of the man he's 85 or 86 and he's still running around like a maniac um but he was the first person to came up with the interdimensional hypothesis saying that the you need to think beyond the concept of alien the limitations of what alien means to explain this and he became uh actually a heretic amongst the he he also went through a phase where the UFO Community was like oh no he's absolutely wrong these are aliens from another planet he's like no maybe they're from this and again it was just like I'm just saying maybe I'm not saying it is um but he as a young boy uh saw a UFO uh with his mother in France where he grew up um and it was corroborated by another individual so he has that kind of that firmament on which he stands of a memory of something that fuels uh a decisiveness about it uh and so um then he was an astronomer uh and um in Paris and one of the things that he said he remember seeing was an object that they were tracking that was not doing the correct orbit around the planet and then how that data was ignored and then later wiped so that kind of tra fed him um he came to Stanford actually to work here uh on the early in the early days of artificial intelligence and then developing arpanet which was the precursor to the Internet so he was involved in that so he's like one of the pioneers of what became the internet um but then he wrote a series of books I you know he just got involved in it um but brought a kind of academic rigor uh to it and an open-mindedness to it he you know visited the Soviet Union around UAP Etc and then became uh a a a name he went to Karis and you know documented all of the stuff that was going on there down in Brazil that I told you about earlier um and he uh you know his his involvement is always welcome because he brings such a fresh perspective uh to the whole thing and is if if anything he's the he's The Devil's Advocate to any idea you might have the moment you become I mean for instance at one point I was personally convinced that whatever these things were were likely uh time traveling future humans you know it was the only explanation in my head and then he just dis you know disabused me of my uh with by just kicking the foundations from underneath my argument and I loved that I love people who who can prove my absolute conclusion wrong yeah I love that too you know it's like just tell me Tell yeah okay great oo that's wonderful okay because that means you've Advanced if if something you really believed is proven wrong then you've learned something really important some people hate that but and he wrote a series of books um called Forbidden Science he's up to like volume six I think and you know somebody tell me you need to read jacques's Diaries they're his Diaries of from the beginning of when he got involved with this and like literally nearly every other day maybe each day might only be a page or even half a page or even just a paragraph but documenting all the players I never thought anybody's diary could be anything other than boring it riveting from beginning to end um and he's finally on I think volume six and I finally show up in like volume six uh it was it's been it's been interesting kind of reading you know the conversations that I had with him back then but I I wish I had again that kind of discipline to have done something like that over the years it's like people who take pictures of themselves when they were like seven years old until today and the changes over time and so he you know it's it's the written history of the field for the last 50 years 60 years and so you know how can you not honor someone like that uh and I think he's he's more he's more or less universally uh adored so something I get a lot of negative feedback for doing on the show is interviewing people on both sides of an issue which I think is extremely important to do so I will interview somebody who is very prot Trump interview somebody who's very anti-trump interview somebody who is very Pro the many world's interpretation of quantum mechanics interview somebody I don't I think I said Pro interview somebody who's anti and I imagine that virtually all of my guests are quite anti- aliens because they're in Academia and I know that I'm going to get a lot of um flak for interviewing you but I think that as I said earlier this is one of the most important questions and it's really important to have it on a show like this now that being said and this is where I want to make sure that I'm being entirely respectful I agree with you or I take all of this data very seriously what I read in the books on UFO and UFOs and government it was extremely compelling it extremely surprising and yet I remain a skeptic and want to search for a more mundane explanation of these phenomena with out while still maintaining a sense that these these other options are possibilities so just to put it very bluntly I I do not believe that aliens have visited the planet and what do you tell to somebody who says this to you I just listen to them it's just data I mean it's you know it was literally jacqu who who taught me the it's the data not the conclusion cuz conclusions can be so easily disproven I could tell you that it's reptilians from the ples here to you know to you know take our people easily disproven so just get a get somebody else to listen to and believe the data so you've read those reports from the the military book history that you're I imagine that you believe the data you know you don't necessarily believe a conclusion I always look at something and go did they collect the data right is there something so I am as much a skep you don't need to interview a skeptic because I'm the skeptic right and is if I wear my scientist's hat correctly I am both Pro something and the anti- proo of that conclusion because you have to be that because as I said earlier the scientist is meant to be wrong today because they're going to be wrer tomorrow and that's the approach that I take I can go to my grave not having proven anything about this but it's the ride and I've had a lot of fun along the way and I've exercised my mind in I mean I've done the biology I don't want to do another biology I don't want to be a person carried out in a casket from my office uh and you know and the Nuance of some protein that's not exciting to me anymore I've done it I want to do something exciting it's a good note to end on Gary this has been an excellent and supremely fascinating conversation thank you so much for having it with me thank you and uh I hope your listeners uh believe the data [Music] Back To Top